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Effect of SAMe on blood pressure

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Hi

I have some questions about SAMe.
Considering the methylation cycle (http://s2.postimage.org/9ujind58p/Methylation.png),
SAMe increases homocysteine and B12,B6,folate will help decrease the homocysteine,hence balancing the cycle. I have experienced increase in blood pressure after taking SAMe. Can this be because of the increased homocysteine, and probably intake of B6,B12,folate will help?

Please share your views and experiences.
Thanks.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I don't know if this is what's going on in your case, SAMe stimulates the BHMT pathway which could cause an increase in norepinephrine. Norepinephrine can raise blood pressure. I'm pretty sure methylation can also cause high blood pressure (at least initially).
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Hmm..maybe. I was just pondering on the probable causes of my abnormal blood pressure. I get headaches too. I thought it's maybe because of SAMe. When I start thinking about it, it seems unlikely. But still always good to know others' experiences.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Someone was saying too much P5P raised his norepinephrine so if that is whats causing high bp then more B6 might not be good. Also, B6, B12, and folate will increase methylation. Also, low potassium from methylation can cause high blood pressure.
 

triffid113

Day of the Square Peg
Messages
831
Location
Michigan
Someone was saying too much P5P raised his norepinephrine so if that is whats causing high bp then more B6 might not be good. Also, B6, B12, and folate will increase methylation. Also, low potassium from methylation can cause high blood pressure.
I vote for the possibility above that I bolded. methylation has no effect that I have ever observed on my blood pressure but my blood pressure is so high (w/o my treatments) that I would never notice a small effect. If the top number of your b.p. is > 120 it means you are low in potassium. If your top number is <=140 then you are only a little low (I use 500mg to correct that). A banana is 333mg so just an extra banana or, even better, a serving of cantalope (which is much higher in potassium).

Triff
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Someone was saying too much P5P raised his norepinephrine so if that is whats causing high bp then more B6 might not be good. Also, B6, B12, and folate will increase methylation. Also, low potassium from methylation can cause high blood pressure.

I'm not taking B12. Just SAMe. It has been prescribed to me. Consuming only SAMe wouldn't lower potassium,would it?
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
arx

It seems too much SAMe could cause overmethylation and overmethylation can cause excitoxicity symptoms even if potassium isn't low. This from dbkita:
Overmethylation is a very,very real thing. It is basic biochemistry. People focus on methylation via the cycle, but in fact methylation via SAMe (mostly) is a huge regulator of gene expression, even silencing certain genes. Too much methylation can have HUGE effects on the body. Period. Anything to the contrary is just ... wrong.

That being said overmethylation is NOT generally the province of b12 generally since even the methyl b12 variant has a very short half-life. Some people on these forums take massive doses to force it to high overpowering concentrations in the CNS to help them with fundamental neurological issues.

On the other hand taking too much SAMe directly, too much TMG and for sure too much 5mthf or even folinic acid for many (or even folic acid for like 40% of the population) can overmethylate you. For those who lack the C677T SNP, riboflavin can also really spark methylation. Those with A1298C mutations are susceptible to overmethylation since the SAMe negative feedback mechanism on MTHFR via allosteric binding is inhibited (which can be really bad). P5p is also a contributor and can spark those with trans-sulfuration problems. B12 has much less impact on overmethylation (though mb12 will reduce melatonin and can cause some insomnia regardless of 'startup' effects).

Personally I overmethylated myself for two years taking too much methylfolate, TMG, r5p, p5p and even some SAMe (the last of which made me understand clinically that I was hammering myself wrongly). And no it was no detox or start-up effects. That tune gets real old real fast for some of us. And it wasn't low potassium either since I got 10 grams per day in diet and supplements. It was simply over-methylation.
 
Messages
39
Hi Lotus 97,

How did you overcome and dealt with your own overmethylation? Can you please share some recommendations or suggestions to help out?

I have a bad feeling that I've really overmethylated myself by taking too much Sam-e.

This past week, I had to call 911 to get me to the ER this past Monday and then I ended up at the ER on Wednesday. The symptoms are where I can't drive and can't walk around much at all. I'm in pain and really struggling for answers (the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with me).

Thank you so much!


arx

It seems too much SAMe could cause overmethylation and overmethylation can cause excitoxicity symptoms even if potassium isn't low. This from dbkita:
Overmethylation is a very,very real thing. It is basic biochemistry. People focus on methylation via the cycle, but in fact methylation via SAMe (mostly) is a huge regulator of gene expression, even silencing certain genes. Too much methylation can have HUGE effects on the body. Period. Anything to the contrary is just ... wrong.

That being said overmethylation is NOT generally the province of b12 generally since even the methyl b12 variant has a very short half-life. Some people on these forums take massive doses to force it to high overpowering concentrations in the CNS to help them with fundamental neurological issues.

On the other hand taking too much SAMe directly, too much TMG and for sure too much 5mthf or even folinic acid for many (or even folic acid for like 40% of the population) can overmethylate you. For those who lack the C677T SNP, riboflavin can also really spark methylation. Those with A1298C mutations are susceptible to overmethylation since the SAMe negative feedback mechanism on MTHFR via allosteric binding is inhibited (which can be really bad). P5p is also a contributor and can spark those with trans-sulfuration problems. B12 has much less impact on overmethylation (though mb12 will reduce melatonin and can cause some insomnia regardless of 'startup' effects).

Personally I overmethylated myself for two years taking too much methylfolate, TMG, r5p, p5p and even some SAMe (the last of which made me understand clinically that I was hammering myself wrongly). And no it was no detox or start-up effects. That tune gets real old real fast for some of us. And it wasn't low potassium either since I got 10 grams per day in diet and supplements. It was simply over-methylation.
 
Messages
39
How do you know you over-methylated? What symptoms caused you to think this?

@maple Quoted below are some of my symptoms listed below from a thread that I posted about it.

Also I was searching the internet and I came across a lady named Sandy Mintun in Illinois who had very similar symptoms (it's crazy how eerily similar it is) even to the point of only being able to sleep for a certain amount of hours. And that she, just like I, was taking 200 mg of Sam-e and then went up to 400 mg right before her symptoms suddenly came upon her.

I emailed her hoping that she successfully healed from it so she might share what helped her but I noticed her post was almost 8 years ago. Fingers crossed that she replies back.

Here's Sandy's post of her symptoms on http://www.depressionblog.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=27
I was just moody after the Holiday let-down when family did not come to visit. I started SAM-e 200mg for ten days then went to 400mg for 18 days. Five days ago, I went to the chiro for an adjustment, my blood pressure was 180 over 90. Extremely high for me, I usually run 100 over 60. I went to the Dr. and he ordered an ECHO gram on my heart, since I have a mitral prolapse. I stopped the SAM-e five days ago and I feel like my head has a bullet lodged in it, anxiety and panic unbelieveable, vision blurred, 3 hrs of sleep a nite, shortness of breath, Heart feeling heavy, sometimes slow then fast, body weakness, left arm numbness and coldness, neck stiffness and pain, choking sensation, body trembling and vibrating from inside, feeling faint and fatigue, dry mouth, gas, constipation, tightness in chest.

Can someone e-mail me, sandymintun1@yahoo.com, if you know what I can do to get this stuff out of my body! Thanks

Posted by Sandy at January 25, 2010 2:55 PM


Here are my symptoms: quoted from https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...-sam-e-went-to-the-er-same.61076/#post-993461
At certain points my blood pressure was 143/91 on the day I called 911 to go to the ER. The next night, I had a 94/62 reading. The next day, I had the 2nd ER visit when I had a blood pressure of 133/91 and 65 bmp. Normally, my blood pressure is at around 96/64 for a while, but I didn't have these negative symptoms back then. I use a WelchAllyn upper-arm cuff BP monitor and I've been monitoring the low BP for about a year. This is a dramatic change for my body. And it quickly happened.

I could only sleep for a few hours a night (about 4 hours) and the whole day I'm totally wired and alert, maybe even restless. I want to sleep again but I can't seem to fall asleep; I just don't feel sleepy. Mood wise, I'm keeping calm, laughing, and engaged by watching lots of my favorite comedy series on Netflix- it helps to distract me from the symptoms and it's fun!

But what's not fun are the other symptoms: feeling like my head is full of pressure, shortness of breath, labored breathing, very fatigued, sometimes feeling like blacking out, my neck is tight, my neck feels like someone is choking me out but I can still breath (maybe it's the blood vessels in my neck constricting and/or it's because of my resting BP, the diastolic pressure), sometimes I'm dizzy, tingling in my fingers and at its worst my toes as well, my heart feels heavy and like its working too hard even while resting, my chest feels tight, my body is slightly to moderately shaky (but not from any negative emotions bc I'm still smiling while watching my shows and still slightly shaking), sometimes my throat gets tight and I have a hard time swallowing food like I normally do, pounding inside my upper chest area, my eyesight gets slightly blurry or slightly fuzzy (I wear contact lens designed for astigmatism), my eyes feel pressure or warm, my teeth feel crowded and pressured especially the upper front teeth and oddly also it feels like when sucking on own teeth, my lips and tongue feel tingly, my hands and feet are cold but my body and neck and head are hot, can't focus like I normally can, and I keep on waking up with only 4 hours of sleep and can't nap. At first, the weird and seemingly dangerous internal physical sensations caused my bmp to spike from being nervous and anxious about all the suddenly new bodily sensations, but since the 1st ER visit, I've recognized the sensations/symptoms are not an immediate threat, and so I keep calm with comedy shows, breathing exercises, mindfulness techniques, meditation, and constantly texting with friends and family.

Currently, I found that if I stay in my air conditioned living room at 68 degrees F and try to lounge on my couch up against the couch's arm, I can kind of tolerate these horrible symptoms. The intensity of my symptoms goes up higher as the temperature moves above 70 degrees F. Also, I noticed that if I slowly drink very cold water, my symptoms temporarily improve and feel better, especially with my head, lower neck, and chest/heart regions.

I was taking Sam-e because I assumed I was undermethylated and had high histamine. I thought that because my seasonal respiratory allergies turned year round, and I’m highly adversely reactive and intolerant of fermented drinks and food, amongst other indicators. I’ve been trying to help myself by taking digestive enzymes when eating, and taking supplements for 4 months such as P-5-P (B6), Vit C powder, magnesium, Zinc, glutamine powder, inositol, taurine (, MSM powder, gaba, and sometimes NAC, along with Zyrtec and Benadryl everyday (I haven’t been sleepy with 3 caps of Benadryl (25 mg each) for the past 1 month). Last 3 month, I was also talking 5-HTP, and tyrosine only in the morning. Last month, irregularly taking B1 (thiamine 100mg) and niacinamide (500mg).

The last week before my ER visit, I started taking a good amount of Alpha Lipoic Acid (thioctic acid 300 mg, sometimes 2x a day) with Biotin (330 mcg, sometimes 2x a day) , Creatine powder (around 3 grams a day), and 400 mg of that new brand and higher dose of Sam-e everyday. They were all new supplements. I noticed that I was having diarrhea for every bowel movement everyday and I couldn’t sleep much sometimes staying awake all night during the whole week- that insomnia progressively got worse. I did notice my BP sometimes was rising a little bit during that week and I was pleased, thinking maybe adding the new supplements helped the regimen. The night before my 1st ER visit, I couldn't sleep at all. And on that Monday, that's when I had to call for an ambulance right after driving my car for a few minutes in 95 degrees F weather.
 
Messages
39
@maple I’m thinking I have Serotonin Syndrome. I remember one of the EMTs saying he suspects I was having serotonin Syndrome as he was taking me to the hospital. The only thing was my body temp was normal on their thermometer but everything else fits the description. But right before that I had bags of ice from the freezer all over my bare upper body because I felt so hot, almost burning up, and and was shaking. I could only feel some relief breathing in the cold freezer air.

The ER doctors asked about Sam-e but didn’t go into it. The EMT said that the Sam-e produces serotonin and the high amount of Benadryl I was taking was keeping the excess serotonin inside my brain and my body.