WHY is cyanocobalamin B12 a bad option?

[Dreambirdie]

Could someone give me a simple explanation for this. I know it is an inactive form of B12, but I do not know how to explain why inactive forms are not helpful.

thanks in advance

 

[Sushi]

Could someone give me a simple explanation for this. I know it is an inactive form of B12, but I do not know how to explain why inactive forms are not helpful.

thanks in advance

A few things (others will know more): there are something like 15 conversions necessary to change cyano to an active form that the body can use. Many have genetic mutations that make that difficult.

Cyanide is one of the breakdown products of cyanocobalamin--not a great thing! One member here nearly died of it!

Sushi

 

[Dreambirdie]

Thanks, Sushi. Is there any written material somewhere about this?

 

[Sushi]

Thanks, Sushi. Is there any written material somewhere about this?

Rich has written about it...somewhere!

Sushi

 

[LaurieL]

Now that you have the short of it, here is something by Freddd.

DEADLOCKS – Pragmatically observed and mostly verified in literature:

1. To convert cyanocbl to methylcbl requires an enzyme and ATP (requiring adenosylcbl and carnitine (requiring methylcbl) and a methyl group in addition to what may be needed for ATP production) and methylfolate for lengthened serum-halflife and utilization of active b12s

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...70-year-old-mystery-solved.20129/#post-308117

So it becomes clear that there are many problems one can encounter when using cyanocbl. if a problem should occur, then cyanide is the result. If you do a search with cyanide on this forum, you will come across several entries by Rich VanK as well. You will also find the antidote to cyanide poisoning is hydroxycobalamin. So if you are taking the hydroxy and the cyanocbl, then some of the hydroxy will go to detoxifying the cyanide.

The entire post on the link above is probably more information than you want. But it is a fine read.

Lauriel

 

[arx]

Two active B12 articles with footnotes, surveys of peer reviewed research


Quoting Fred from Active B12 Protocol Basics


"
REASONS WHY B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES DON'T WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE
Version 2.0 - 03/10/11
Version 2.1 - 05/08/11


1. They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesnt work, oh well, thats the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzyme "

 

[GracieJ]

I don't do well at all with cyanocobalamin, does nothing for me. I tested "allergic" with both muscle testing and NAET. It's a poison in my system, so I avoid it completely.

 

[Dreambirdie]

The reason I asked about this is that I have a friend who is taking a very confusing NOW B12 supplement (see below), that has 5000 mcg worth of 3 forms of B12: cyano, methyl, and dibencozide... plus B2, B3 (niacinamide), B6, folic acid and etc...

I wanted to explain to him why this is a bad choice, especially in light of the cyano (inactive B12) and the niacinamide, which actually stops methylation.

Who creates these formulas? It seems they have no idea what they are doing.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Ultra-B-12-5-000-mcg-4-fl-oz-118-ml/6281

 

[arx]

The reason I asked about this is that I have a friend who is taking a very confusing NOW B12 supplement (see below), that has 5000 mcg worth of 3 forms of B12: cyano, methyl, and dibencozide... plus B2, B3 (niacinamide), B6, folic acid and etc...

I wanted to explain to him why this is a bad choice, especially in light of the cyano (inactive B12) and the niacinamide, which actually stops methylation.

Who creates these formulas? It seems they have no idea what they are doing.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Ultra-B-12-5-000-mcg-4-fl-oz-118-ml/6281

Yeah,the formula does seem weird. I guess the companies are making just everything to be available to the market,which might be a good thing about some formulas. Or there must be some research about absorption of the three forms. From whatever I have gathered by reading here about active and inactive forms is that they should never be taken together, one might block the other's absorption. Same goes for folic acid and l-methylfolate being together.
Methylcobalamin and Dibencozide(Adenosylcobalamin) seems like a good formula. But adding cyanoB12 with whatever I have read about it, it might even have a negative effect on the absorption?

Since I have also used a NOW product only, the 1000 mcg MB12, maybe that can be considered?
I think they also come with a 5000 mcg MB12,but that one was with folic acid if I'm right. Both are sublinguals.

I don't know if Niacinamide actually "stops" methylation. Perhaps you wan't to read more about it's role, as I am not sure. I know it IS required like other B vitamins for supporting methylation and related processes. The scenario where it is said to "stop" is actually over methylation,where Niacin can bring about a relief by eating away the methyl groups. 50 mg of Niacin is actually an amount you would find in most of the B-Complex products available. I have seen many with 100 mg. I also remember reading that the idea of over and under methylation is debatable. But most of the articles, particularly Dr. Ben Lynch's one on overmethylation supports the use of Niacin for overmethylation.

 

[arx]

http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/what-are-symptoms-of-over-methylation/


http://mthfr.net/overmethylation-and-undermethylation-case-study/2012/06/27/

 

[Dreambirdie]

The scenario where it is said to "stop" is actually over methylation, where Niacin can bring about a relief by eating away the methyl groups. 50 mg of Niacin is actually an amount you would find in most of the B-Complex products available. I have seen many with 100 mg. I also remember reading that the idea of over and under methylation is debatable. But most of the articles, particularly Dr. Ben Lynch's one on overmethylation supports the use of Niacin for overmethylation.

Yeah, arx, that's what I meant.

 

[arx]

What I meant was that 50 mg of Niacin may not be harmful..

 

[Lotus97]

The reason I asked about this is that I have a friend who is taking a very confusing NOW B12 supplement (see below), that has 5000 mcg worth of 3 forms of B12: cyano, methyl, and dibencozide... plus B2, B3 (niacinamide), B6, folic acid and etc...

I wanted to explain to him why this is a bad choice, especially in light of the cyano (inactive B12) and the niacinamide, which actually stops methylation.

Who creates these formulas? It seems they have no idea what they are doing.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Ultra-B-12-5-000-mcg-4-fl-oz-118-ml/6281

This is one of the many reasons why despise proprietary blends. These companies add a few fancy ingredients along with cheap ingredients and hope no one will notice that they don't specify how much of each ingredient is included.

 

[Lotus97]

Two active B12 articles with footnotes, surveys of peer reviewed research


Quoting Fred from Active B12 Protocol Basics


"
REASONS WHY B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES DON'T WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE
Version 2.0 - 03/10/11
Version 2.1 - 05/08/11


1. They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesnt work, oh well, thats the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzyme "

While Hydroxy B12 (Hydroxocobalamin) might not work for some people here, I'm not sure I understand why it's being referred to as "inactive". There are plenty of people who have gotten good results from hydroxy b12 and Rich had enough confidence in it to include it in his most recent methylation protocol (Fall 2012). He does say to switch to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin if hydroxocobalamin isn't working after a certain amount of time.

 

[arx]

HydroxyB12 is inactive. HydroxyB12 gets converted to methylB12 and adenosylB12, IF that conversion is taking place to the two bioactive forms. However ,if it is not then you need to take methyl and adenob12

 

[Lotus97]

Is there any problem taking 200 mcg of cyanocobalamin orally? I'm already taking a lot of supplements and taking a regular b complex is very convenient compared to taking all my b vitamins separately to avoid cyano b12.