folic, folates

[kelly138]

any quick cheat sheet on which to use - which not to use - equivalent doses?

I keep reading not to use folic acid but I have no idea why not

 

[alex3619]

Folic acid is NOT a vitamin. Its a synthetic compound that in young healthy people with the right genetic makeup can be converted through at least two steps to the real folate, which for simplicity is often called methyl folate. Leafy green vegetables also do not contain directly useful folate, the plant form has to be converted to the animal form first. Ironically it is meat that contains animal folate, not leafy green vegetables. However it is easy to supplement with methyl folate, and is even sold at high dose as the drug Deplin.

We now know that nearly four fifths of older women can no longer convert folic acid to methyl folate. The folate accumulates. This is associated (causation has yet to be proved) with increased cancer, dementia and natural killer cell dysfunction. Natural killer cell dysfunction also seems to be a hallmark of ME though its use as a biomarker is still being investigated.

I am not aware of data on failure rates to convert plant folate to animal folate.

So folic acid is possibly a poison for many in the population, and probably for most of an older age. Methyl folate is not. There are other issues and complexities in all this, but thats basically the reason why we should take methyl folate rather than folic acid. However a subset of ME patients (and also autism patients) have one or more genetic issues that prevent proper conversion of folic acid. Those people can have major problems at even a young age.

Folic acid is routinely added to bread and breakfast cereal, by law in many countries. I no longer eat either.

 

[kelly138]

this answers a lot of it

what about folinic acid which is sold as calcium folinate?

I bought a bottle of it thinking I was to take it then was told by the ND it wasn't needed. She wants me to push the B12 up and do "minimal" methylfolate - ie she agreed with the 125 mcg I had gotten myself to when I saw her and didn't see going up to the 1500 mcg she originally suggested- not sure how much of her decision was based on blood work or just that I was complaining the methylfolate was killing my liver. I do fit that "older women" characteristic and my folate level in my blood was higher than what they measure up to.

so today I took about 200 mcg of the folinic acid and the mind did strange things (which wasn't all bad)

I am doing minimal "enriched" food but there are some around the house - do I push them all off on spouse and make sure I stay away from them?

I have a bottle of Country Life Active B12 with some folic acid in it - do I try it eventually or trash it (spouse won't touch it I know).

It is bad enough that I found out this week I am allergic to eggs and have to push those on him - some things I tend to eat he refuses to but the eggs he will. I will miss my eggs.

 

[alex3619]

People have many positions on these issues. Personally I wont take a MV or B complex with folic acid, I threw them. I even found one lurking in the back of my fridge so I threw it this morning There are versions that have methyl folate instead. Folinic acid is the plant folate. It still has to be converted to methyl folate but its only one step not two. Many of us can tolerate it, but not all.

 

[kelly138]

thanks for your replies

 

[taniaaust1]

Probably not much wrong with your folinic acid but it may not work as well for some as methylfolate does.

Normal folate 9-17% of people (depending on what country you are in) have a MTHFR polymorphism.. this prevents those with it from being able to properly convert folate to folinic acid (which the body naturally does). The very top experts in that are now saying methylfolate is superior (works stronger) then folinic acid supplements for this group of people. Warning..the experts thou in that area say that if you have a MTHFR polymorphism (so almost something one in five has) and IF the person also has certain other polymorphisms with it too.. taking methylfolate can be highly dangerous (I may of even seen something about that it could cause death in those with certain combos of polymorphisms including with the MTHFR one) and hence should only be done under a specialist. The mthfr.net website expert warns of this.

I think we need to be far more careful then the general community does as wasnt there some ME/CFS study done in the past which compared to 2-3 polymorphisms an average person has, it was found we had as many as something like 120. (the number could of been more than that).

My specialist in that field was very cautious with how I even used the folinic kind and got me to increase it slowly over several weeks. Anyway.. trial things carefully.

 

[Red04]

I don't think this doc has all the answers, but you can easily follow the videos for a basic understanding of what is probably going on with folates, MTHFR, etc....

Everyone who has already made it here should watch this:

http://www.methyl-life.com/a-doctor-explains.html

 

[Sherlock]

watch this:

http://www.methyl-life.com/a-doctor-explains.html

Thanks, that'll be playing on my 4am Insomnia Theater Hour

 

[pela]

Alex,

I had no heard that inability to convert folic acid was related to age or gender. I would like to read more about it. Do you have a reference?

 

[Little Bluestem]

We now know that nearly four fifths of older women can no longer convert folic acid to methyl folate.

alex3619, do you know the source of this information? I would like to make my doctor aware of it, but need something better than “I read it on the internet”.

I did have my red blood cell folate tested and it was high, despite the fact that I was not supplementing folic acid and was avoiding most folic acid containing foods. The lab results sheet only gave a lower limit, not an upper limit, so officially my folate was OK. I found the upper limit on the internet, so know that it is high.

 

[alex3619]

alex3619, do you know the source of this information? I would like to make my doctor aware of it, but need something better than “I read it on the internet”.

I did have my red blood cell folate tested and it was high, despite the fact that I was not supplementing folic acid and was avoiding most folic acid containing foods. The lab results sheet only gave a lower limit, not an upper limit, so officially my folate was OK. I found the upper limit on the internet, so know that it is high.

I will go looking. It was posted on PR last year I think. Its a study that was done in a retirement village and I think done about 2008 or so, iirc. It was entirely for women, men were not tested. It cited associations with cancer, dementia and NK cell dysfunction.

 

[alex3619]

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/15/2/189.full

This is not the one I was thinking of, but it mentions the results: cancer, dementia and NK cell dysfunction. It does however seem confused a little between folate and folic acid. I am not sure if this is significant or not.

Also this:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/3/517.full

 

[Freddd]

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/15/2/189.full

This is not the one I was thinking of, but it mentions the results: cancer, dementia and NK cell dysfunction. It does however seem confused a little between folate and folic acid. I am not sure if this is significant or not.

Also this:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/3/517.full

Hi Alex,

Almost everywhere one reads "folic acid is folate" instead of "folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that still works at all for anybody".

There are many folates. Only the animal folate, L-methylfolate for simple, works for me. And it indeed can cause very dangerous side effects, hypokalemia which can be fatal. It also causes more healing startup than the same dose can sustain as it starts several levels of healing at once. It can also cause potentially permanent brain and cord damage known as Sub Acute Combined Degeneration if taken without adequate cerebral MeCbl and AdoCbl.

 

[alex3619]

The issue is which folate/s were studied, which these summaries I posted do not explain. From memory its folic acid in the bloodstream that may be a big issue. Its not decided yet, but I suspect that as folicacid rises, natural folate will drop, and this will drive dementia and immune issues. This is possibly even more likely for brain and spinal tissue. I think we need to get rid of folic acid as a mandatory supplement, and replace it with methyl folate, even though it is more unstable. That might mean that we no longer fortify breakfast cereal and bread.

On a side note I might be about to be forced to become a vegetarian again (lactovegetarian) due to other issues: B12, methyl folate, and CoQ10 need to be supplemented in that case, regardless of whether I use them as a therapeutic tool.

 

[Freddd]

The issue is which folate/s were studied, which these summaries I posted do not explain. From memory its folic acid in the bloodstream that may be a big issue. Its not decided yet, but I suspect that as folicacid rises, natural folate will drop, and this will drive dementia and immune issues. This is possibly even more likely for brain and spinal tissue. I think we need to get rid of folic acid as a mandatory supplement, and replace it with methyl folate, even though it is more unstable. That might mean that we no longer fortify breakfast cereal and bread.

On a side note I might be about to be forced to become a vegetarian again (lactovegetarian) due to other issues: B12, methyl folate, and CoQ10 need to be supplemented in that case, regardless of whether I use them as a therapeutic tool.

Hi Alex,

Severe folate deficiency symptoms appears to include MCS, asthma, allergies, food sensitivities, over sensitivity over response to many things and maybe autoimmune diseases. And it can also drive dementia issues with the other 3 of the deadlock quartet.

 

[ltd]

Hi all,

My first post here. Feeling a bit nervous. Here goes . . . I've been reading all I can on this for months and am starting very slowly the RvK protocol on myself. Wanted to figure it out on me & my symptoms/ramp up before helping my eldest child. BUT now his osteopath/craniosacral/nutritionist guy just prescribed folic acid! Doc said to take Folixor every other day. Folixor label: Folinic 1 mg, Folic Acid 9mg, B-12 100 mcg, and B-6 10mg. Don't know what form of b12 this is.

DS14 got an unlucky mix of my & my hubby's SNPS: A1298C +/+, COMT +/-, VDR Taq +/+, CBS A360 +/-, ACAT +/-, MTRR +/+ (A66A & A664A), MTR A2756G +/+, BHMT +/-, AHCY +/-, and MAO-A +/+. Plus some NAT2 mutations that slow down his liver & gut.

In the past he's been plagued by anxiety, severe depression, digestive issues. Much improved now (thx in large part to this osteopath), but I'm balking at the folic acid recommendation. Our relationship with the this doc predates my dive into methylation. He's not versed in this area.

My question is this: can I substitute FolaPro and folinic acid (1/4 tab each, 200mcg each) for the Folixor (which would have resulted in 500mcg daily of folinic acid, ignoring the other stuff). DS is also taking Thorne Basic Nutrients V (4 caps daily), fish oil, Ascorbplex, probiotics, grape seed extract. So he's not taking Perque B12 or Lecithin per the RvK protocol. - can we add in the folates?

Thanks for your help,

-- LauraD

 

[Valentijn]

My question is this: can I substitute FolaPro and folinic acid (1/4 tab each, 200mcg each) for the Folixor (which would have resulted in 500mcg daily of folinic acid, ignoring the other stuff). DS is also taking Thorne Basic Nutrients V (4 caps daily), fish oil, Ascorbplex, probiotics, grape seed extract. So he's not taking Perque B12 or Lecithin per the RvK protocol. - can we add in the folates?

MTHFR A1298C by itself doesn't have much impact, if any. The folic acid shouldn't cause him any problems. But with his mutations, it doesn't make sense to take a product with a huge amount of folic acid (which he probably doesn't need) with a small dose of B12 (which he really does need, and probably more of it).

And he does have some severe B12 problems. Supplementing B12 should probably be the priority. Due to having slow version of MAOA and COMT, he might not tolerate methylB12 well, and hydroxoB12 might be safer, especially if taking high doses.

 

[ltd]

Huh. Ok. So I'm thinking of starting him on a bit of hydroxoB12 and calcium folinate, and seeing what happens. I'm tempted to do the folinate first, since that's closer to what the dr picked up from his readings. Then add B12 the following week or two, depending. The dr also wanted him to take some melatonin to help sleep, which I think we should stop when the B12 is added in. I read somewhere that enough melatonin is produced when you process enough B12 correctly.

I just saw a post by Dr Ben on Google's mthfr community re: how homo 1298's may make methylfolate just fine, but that possibly SAMe doesn't tell 1298 when to stop. So SAMe gets too high, which pushes up CBS activity. I gotta figure this out . . . what a puzzle. I'm hoping the calcium folinate moves things along.

Thanks for your guidance, Valentjin. love your signature quote, btw. one of my favorite books. I mentioned cards in m signature, too, but not nearly so existential.