Has anyone "pushed through" "exitoxicity" type sypmtoms?

[Red04]

Thanks for all the responses. It doesn't sound like anyone has pushed through and been glad they did.

I am glad my wife pushed through. In fact, it was border-line miraculous coming out on the other side of it.. I don't even tell people in the real world (unless they have CFS) about what happened, because it sounds like I'm crazy.

Bad symptoms for a few weeks, then she was running a triathalon 6 months later. Hasn't been to the doctor for an illness in two years. She is a normal, healthy human and we had our first kid 6 weeks ago. There is no way she would have pushed through the "start-up" symptoms going at it alone. I'm not sure if there is a better way to get through it, but pushing through worked for us.

 

[Adster]

My apologies Red04, I didn't mean to ignore your experience! My brain is not so good at times..... It's awesome that your wife was able to push through and that it was worth the suffering! Thanks for sharing

Heh, I only just noticed that I spelled symptoms incorrectly in the title

 

[Adster]

I'm wondering a bit lately that perhaps these "exitotoxicity" type feelings are in fact an immune response(IgE?), ie like hayfever but without the sneezing and itchy eyes etc. I guess that could tie in with the mast cell theory that has been posted elsewhere. So when supplements are taken that allow the immune system to strengthen, the unwanted allergy response can also be stronger. Maybe that's a stupid hypothesis, I don't know. I might try a low dose of zyrtec for an extended period and see what happens.

 

[newradost]

Also it could be histamine reaction. When I eat foods high in histamine I feel angry burst and exitotoxicity....

 

[Adster]

Yep I agree histamine could be involved, I'm sure there are numerous autoimmune reactions that release histamine.

 

[Crux]

Hi ;

I find that when I take too much zinc, I get itchy and sneezy. I've read that some of the cofactors for histamine metabolism are; vitamin C, B6, and copper. So I'm probably displacing copper. I now eat cashews, sesame seeds, legumes, etc. more.

 

[newradost]

We (me and my 4yo son) are experiencing the same with zinc. I'm going to add cooper

 

[dannybex]

I am surprised that anyone would recommend gelatin since it is high in glutamate, which is excitatory. We are thinking of trying 5htp, because he has problems with anxiety and sleep. After that I think we will add gaba.

I know this is old, but just stumbled across it and felt the need to comment.

Perhaps bleached gelatin -- that used in say 'Jello'-type products may be "high in glutamate", but regular gelatin, the unprocessed kind one would make from bone broths, or powdered gelatin (say, Great Lakes brand) is actually one of the lowest food sources of glutamates. Chicken, turkey, beef, cheese, milk, grains, etc., have much, much higher levels proportional to gelatin.

'Real' gelatin has one of the highest levels of the calming amino acid glycine, and is recommended by some to help improve sleep.

"A generous supply of glycine/gelatin, against a balanced background of amino acids, has a great variety of antistress actions. Glycine is recognized as an “inhibitory” neurotransmitter, and promotes natural sleep. Used as a supplement, it has helped to promote recovery from strokes and seizures, and to improve learning and memory. But in every type of cell, it apparently has the same kind of quieting, protective antistress action. The range of injuries produced by an excess of tryptophan and serotonin seems to be prevented or corrected by a generous supply of glycine. Fibrosis, free radical damage, inflammation, cell death from ATP depletion or calcium overload, mitochondrial damage, diabetes, etc., can be prevented or alleviated by glycine."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

And from wikipedia:

Gelatin is unusually high in the non-essential amino acids glycine and proline (i.e., those produced by the human body), while lacking certain essential amino acids (i.e., those not produced by the human body). It contains no tryptophan and is deficient in isoleucine, threonine, and methionine. The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%,phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%.

 

[Brandy Avila]

I know this is old, but just stumbled across it and felt the need to comment.

Perhaps bleached gelatin -- that used in say 'Jello'-type products may be "high in glutamate", but regular gelatin, the unprocessed kind one would make from bone broths, or powdered gelatin (say, Great Lakes brand) is actually one of the lowest food sources of glutamates. Chicken, turkey, beef, cheese, milk, grains, etc., have much, much higher levels proportional to gelatin.

'Real' gelatin has one of the highest levels of the calming amino acid glycine, and is recommended by some to help improve sleep.

"A generous supply of glycine/gelatin, against a balanced background of amino acids, has a great variety of antistress actions. Glycine is recognized as an “inhibitory” neurotransmitter, and promotes natural sleep. Used as a supplement, it has helped to promote recovery from strokes and seizures, and to improve learning and memory. But in every type of cell, it apparently has the same kind of quieting, protective antistress action. The range of injuries produced by an excess of tryptophan and serotonin seems to be prevented or corrected by a generous supply of glycine. Fibrosis, free radical damage, inflammation, cell death from ATP depletion or calcium overload, mitochondrial damage, diabetes, etc., can be prevented or alleviated by glycine."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

And from wikipedia:

Gelatin is unusually high in the non-essential amino acids glycine and proline (i.e., those produced by the human body), while lacking certain essential amino acids (i.e., those not produced by the human body). It contains no tryptophan and is deficient in isoleucine, threonine, and methionine. The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%,phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%.

 

[freshveggies]

Not sure about the gelatin. I made some home made chicken soup and I could not sleep well. tried it for 2 days. I feel it was the broth. It was an organic free range chicken. No other additives except for carrots, celery and zucchini.

 

[Crux]

I've read that B6 and B12 help to process glutamates.
I've been making alot of bone broths these past 4 yrs with good results.
I've also taken glycine in the past, and found it to be very calming and good for sleep.

 

[dannybex]

Not sure about the gelatin. I made some home made chicken soup and I could not sleep well. tried it for 2 days. I feel it was the broth. It was an organic free range chicken. No other additives except for carrots, celery and zucchini.

Certainly could've been the broth, but might also -- just possibly -- be the amount of chicken in the soup. Too much protein at night will keep one alert. Also, carrots and zucchini are both very high in salicylates, which can be a problem for some people and cause insomnia, anxiety, etc..

But...could've been the broth too. So complicated.

 

[kelly138]

the problem isn't glutamate but "free glutamate" - my understanding is that they become "free" with exposure to heat - the more heat - the longer the cooking - the more free glutamate out there

I can't handle any crock pot cooked meats because of it

 

[Adster]

Extended cooking and browning of meats produces amines also, which can cause sleep problems. Lean is also better in this regard.

 

[Asklipia]

Not sure about the gelatin. I made some home made chicken soup and I could not sleep well. tried it for 2 days. I feel it was the broth. It was an organic free range chicken. No other additives except for carrots, celery and zucchini.

When I think "glutamate" I have to take care not to ingest any, but ALSO to take care not to ingest anything that actually boosts the amount of glutamate ingested.
Celery, parsnips, fig skin together with citrus fruit skin, and some whole citrus fruit (bergamot, pomelo, bitter orange) do exactly that.

Celery and those others contain psoralens also called furocoumarins. Those are inhibitory of cytochrome P450 3A4 and inhibitors of glutamate dehydrogenase. Not at all a good idea for us.

Celery to fight excitotoxicity? Certainly not for me.

This is why they make celery salt, which is just as addictive as MSG.
Dundee marmalade is also highly addictive. So are pickled lemons used in North African cooking to give more "taste" in stews. Highly addictive too.

If you drink ready-made orange juice for breakfast, remember it is made including the skin. You are most probably addicted to it.

The effect of a small dose of furocoumarins lasts for 3 days. The time it takes for regeneration of the intestinal cells containing the P450 as it follows a "suicide" reaction. No wonder we are exhausted.

I face the fact that I am addicted, that my body craves for that drug. And that if I avoid all glutamates religiously, it will look for ways to boost my intake. The price of this addiction is terribly high. Once you know about it, you can change your life.

Be well!!!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Asklipia]

Not sure about the gelatin. I made some home made chicken soup and I could not sleep well. tried it for 2 days. I feel it was the broth. It was an organic free range chicken. No other additives except for carrots, celery and zucchini.

Again celery :
Celery is very high in nitrates, which oral bacteria will nicely convert into nitrites, thus helping blood flow in some parts of the brain.
But if you clean your mouth too much with toothpaste you might miss that conversion, and end up with a load of nitrates. Since there does seem to be a Nitric Oxide side to our problem, it could very well be that the celery is the culprit, for the reason of intensifying the glutamate effect AND the nitrates problem. Maybe they are both two sides of the same coin?

Since that cytochrome P450 is involved in reduction of NO?
One sliver of celery sometimes, but rarely. It does sound like a bad idea to have it in any quantity and repeatedly.

Acute effect of a high nitrate diet on brain perfusion in older adults


..... "Others have previously shown that substantial elevations in plasma nitrite occur through increasing dietary nitrate intake [4]. Nitrate from the diet, once absorbed from the intestine, is taken up from the plasma by salivary glands and concentrated in saliva; nitrate is subsequently reduced to nitrite by symbiotic, oral bacteria and ultimately absorbed into the circulatory system [4, 5]. Documented physiological effects from increasing dietary nitrate include reduction in blood pressure [6, 8], improvement in intestinal health [10], and increases in exercise performance [9]. These effects are eliminated when volunteers either spit or use mouthwash, thereby implicating the importance of nitrate reduction to nitrite by oral bacteria.".....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018552/

 

[freshveggies]

WOW! that is all I can say. You all have responded so nicely, now I really don't know what to eat. You have brought up so many things. I just don't think I understand. I was going low sulfur, but might be creating more problems for myself. I mostly eat a little fish, a little beef, celery, zucchini, apples, nitrate free bacon, ghee, lard, and a few almonds. That is all. Can you all give me suggestions that would be better to help me sleep as that seems to be my holding me back. Have had severe insomnia for over a year now. It has tamed down a little since I have started a methylation protocol, but nothing steady. This month I haven't slept decent in the last 12 nights.

 

[dannybex]

WOW! that is all I can say. You all have responded so nicely, now I really don't know what to eat. You have brought up so many things. I just don't think I understand. I was going low sulfur, but might be creating more problems for myself. I mostly eat a little fish, a little beef, celery, zucchini, apples, nitrate free bacon, ghee, lard, and a few almonds. That is all. Can you all give me suggestions that would be better to help me sleep as that seems to be my holding me back. Have had severe insomnia for over a year now. It has tamed down a little since I have started a methylation protocol, but nothing steady. This month I haven't slept decent in the last 12 nights.

We're all different, so what helps one may not help another, and indeed may make the other person worse.

But this is what's helped me somewhat:

Glycine -- helps detoxify salicylates, and is also a calming amino.

Inositol -- very helpful in making me sleepy -- considered by some to be related to the b vitamin family.

And that Great Lakes Gelatin. I sprinkle a bit of it on my lunch and dinner meals.

 

[freshveggies]

Thanks for those suggestions. Never hurts to try somethig new.

 

[alice]

When I think "glutamate" I have to take care not to ingest any, but ALSO to take care not to ingest anything that actually boosts the amount of glutamate ingested.
Celery, parsnips, fig skin together with citrus fruit skin, and some whole citrus fruit (bergamot, pomelo, bitter orange) do exactly that.

Celery and those others contain psoralens also called furocoumarins. Those are inhibitory of cytochrome P450 3A4 and inhibitors of glutamate dehydrogenase. Not at all a good idea for us.

Celery to fight excitotoxicity? Certainly not for me.

This is why they make celery salt, which is just as addictive as MSG.
Dundee marmalade is also highly addictive. So are pickled lemons used in North African cooking to give more "taste" in stews. Highly addictive too.

If you drink ready-made orange juice for breakfast, remember it is made including the skin. You are most probably addicted to it.

The effect of a small dose of furocoumarins lasts for 3 days. The time it takes for regeneration of the intestinal cells containing the P450 as it follows a "suicide" reaction. No wonder we are exhausted.

I face the fact that I am addicted, that my body craves for that drug. And that if I avoid all glutamates religiously, it will look for ways to boost my intake. The price of this addiction is terribly high. Once you know about it, you can change your life.

Be well!!!
Asklipia
FFP

Asklipia, so supplementing with Modified Citrus Pectin may not be a good idea if excitotoxicity is a problem?