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Similarities between ME/CFS patients and astronauts

Emootje

Senior Member
Messages
356
Location
The Netherlands
In this review David Williams provide an overview of the many complex physiologic changes that take place in short- and long-duration space flight, most often in response to microgravity. It is remarkable that some of the described physiologic chances also occur in ME/CFS patients. Both have low blood volume, impaired cellular immunity, reactivation of herpes viruses, orthostatic intolerance and increased circulating levels of catecholamines.

astronauts.JPG
treatment.JPG
 
Messages
445
Location
Georgia
Excellent observation, Emootje.

The only thing possibly causing this in astronauts is an impairment or malfunction somewhere in the HPA axis. Probably due to the lack of a diurnal cycle, weightlessness, possibly variations in oxygen.

Which raises the point: is ME/CFS basically an impairment very deep in our HPA axis? Probably genetically based. In which case looking for viruses and pathogens is a waste of time. The enemy is our own bodies.
 

Emootje

Senior Member
Messages
356
Location
The Netherlands
Excellent observation, Emootje.

The only thing possibly causing this in astronauts is an impairment or malfunction somewhere in the HPA axis. Probably due to the lack of a diurnal cycle, weightlessness, possibly variations in oxygen.

Which raises the point: is ME/CFS basically an impairment very deep in our HPA axis? Probably genetically based. In which case looking for viruses and pathogens is a waste of time. The enemy is our own bodies.

Good point!
You could conclude that the viruses are secondary due to an impairment in cellular immunity. Besides HPA axis abnormalities, an increase in sympathetic tone (due to low blood volume?) can cause this reduction in cellular immunity:

symp nk cells.JPG
 

AFCFS

Senior Member
Messages
312
Location
NC
Using the rather colloquialized version of Occam's Razor, in essence suggesting "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one," I think in years to come they will find the real culprit to be Tang.


- I was skeptical of this stuff even as a kid :)
 
Messages
445
Location
Georgia
Hmm, why do I get such a nasty CFS crash when I fly more than one time zone, against the direction of the sun? Why do I get sick when the length of days change in the Fall? Or when the barimetric pressure changes suddenly? We are dealing with a complicated illness here. I definitely don't have a future in space travel. Maybe I can live near the center of the earth.
 
Messages
15,786
Using the rather colloquialized version of Occam's Razor, in essence suggesting "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one," I think in years to come they will find the real culprit to be Tang.

I think you're on to something ... I was abused by Tang as a child, and I'm certain that caused my ME :p
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
If these effects are due to zero gravity, then I wonder what would happen if you lived under increased gravity? Would that have an opposite, health boosting effect? Could we cure ME/CFS by centrifuging ourselves for a few weeks at 2g? Just kidding, of course.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
If these effects are due to zero gravity, then I wonder what would happen if you lived under increased gravity? Would that have an opposite, health boosting effect? Could we cure ME/CFS by centrifuging ourselves for a few weeks at 2g? Just kidding, of course.

That sounds like one of the more promising protocols! ;)

Sushi
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Excellent observation, Emootje.

The only thing possibly causing this in astronauts is an impairment or malfunction somewhere in the HPA axis. Probably due to the lack of a diurnal cycle, weightlessness, possibly variations in oxygen.

Which raises the point: is ME/CFS basically an impairment very deep in our HPA axis? Probably genetically based. In which case looking for viruses and pathogens is a waste of time. The enemy is our own bodies.

That thou doesnt explain the large ME outbreaks.
 

Emootje

Senior Member
Messages
356
Location
The Netherlands
On earth they study microgravity-induced hypovolemia by head down tilt (HDT):
Clinical aspects of the control of plasma volume at microgravity and during return to one gravity.

HDT.JPG


They also link this hypovolemia with orthostatic intolerance and reduced V02max:
"A pronounced 10-20% reduction in plasma volume is induced within 24-48 h of exposure to microgravity. The clinical importance of microgravity-induced hypovolemia is manifested by the relationships between the magnitude of plasma volume reductions and orthostatic intolerance and reduced V02max after return to one gravity"
 
Messages
445
Location
Georgia
Messages
445
Location
Georgia
Good point!
You could conclude that the viruses are secondary due to an impairment in cellular immunity. Besides HPA axis abnormalities, an increase in sympathetic tone (due to low blood volume?) can cause this reduction in cellular immunity:...........

Unfortunately, I've concluded long ago that the virus reactivation is a side reaction to something much deeper. And your explanation about the hypovolemia works for me. Are we the chosen few? I can't think of any other reason other than genetic susceptibility. I have postulated that it's just structural weakness in the body's barriers and boundaries. Our guts are permeable, our blood brain barrier is permeable, our organs are permeable causing multiple ailments, illnesses. Or maybe not...

The folks who experienced the Chronic Fatigue epidemic at Incline Village were all living at altitude. That's near Tahoe, Reno. Maybe they were just a vulnerable population. The other famous involved nurses, didn't it? Nurses getting sick from something at a hospital/clinic is not outside the range of impossible.
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
Wow can I be an astronaut - floating in space will be very comfortable.