Does Deplin Cause Start Up Symptoms?

[Ema]

I really think it is important to only change one thing at a time in the protocol in order to see what is causing what to happen. So, because I believe that so strongly, a few weeks ago, I had our hardwood floors sanded and re-stained and also made at least three significant changes to my supplement protocol all in the same week! Needless to say, I've been feeling pretty crappy lately and now am left to try to figure out what the issue might be.

At this point with most of the floor stain smell worn off, I think the most likely cause is the Deplin. I ran out of the 800 mcg strength methylfolate so have been taking a quarter of a 7.5 mg Deplin tablet instead as I thought that was the same thing only stronger. After I take it, I get super headachey and dizzy, blurry vision, my legs start to feel heavy and my lips feel a bit tingly. I'm also taking 10 mg of mB12 split twice daily.

Do you all think that this could be an intolerance reaction to the greater quantity of Deplin? Or a start-up reaction? I take plenty of potassium so I don't think it is that. I'm trying to decide whether or not to slow it down or keep on pushing through the symptoms if it is start-up. I generally feel vastly improved about 5 to 6 hours after I've taken my morning dose which makes me think the feeling bad is at least partially related to the Deplin.

Any thoughts?

I still don't have a firm grasp on the proper ratio of methylfolate to mB12 either...

Thanks!

 

[richvank]

Hi, Ema.

As you probably know, my views about dosing are somewhat different from Freddd's. In my view, based on the biochemistry and on seeing test results from three people with ME/CFS who have followed Freddd's type of dosing, this type of regimen causes overdriving of the methylation cycle and prevents glutathione from coming up. This is fine for Freddd and for others who may have his particular genetic variations (which I think are unusual), but not so fine for most people who have ME/CFS, in my opinion.

One-quarter of a 7.5 mg Deplin tablet would amount to 1875 mg of methylfolate. That is over four times the RDA for folate, and it is the most active form of folate. A dosage of 10 mg of methyl B12 is not only the direct form of B12 needed by methionine synthase, but it is about 5 times as much B12 as I suggested in the simplified methylation protocol, which was found to help about two-thirds of the people in the clinical study.

With this combination, I believe that the cells will not have control over the rate of the methylation cycle, and it will be overdriven. My suggestion would be to lower the dosages. 800 micrograms should be plenty of methylfolate, and a couple of milligrams per day of methyl B12 should also be plenty.

I realize that Freddd would give you different advice, but as I wrote, I don't think his genetics are the same as those of most PWMEs.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Ema]

With this combination, I believe that the cells will not have control over the rate of the methylation cycle, and it will be overdriven. My suggestion would be to lower the dosages. 800 micrograms should be plenty of methylfolate, and a couple of milligrams per day of methyl B12 should also be plenty.

Thanks Rich.

If I am overdriving the methylation cycle, will this show up on the methylation panel I did about two weeks ago?

I upped the dosages partly because I felt like I had plateaued. I was taking 8 mg of mB12 and 1600 mcg total in two doses until about 3 weeks ago. I ran out of both the 800 mcg methylfolate and the 1000 mcg mB12 and so figured the higher doses might help get things rolling again because I definitely noticed improvement when I first started them.

I've been taking the mB12/adB12/methylfolate for 7 or 8 months now. Is this likely as much benefit as I'm going to see from it or do many people plateau for a while and then see further improvement?

I also posted a thread on glutathione supplementation and would like to hear your thoughts if possible. I ordered the transdermal glutathione cream and am wondering if you see supplementing this as a positive or negative while trying to improve methylation?

Ema

 

[richvank]

Hi, Ema.

If you were taking these high dosages for a while before running the methylation pathways panel, yes, I think that overdriving the methylation cycle will likely show up on the panel. In this situation, typically SAMe and SAH are normal to high-normal, while glutathione is still low. More can be learned if a 40 plasma amino acids panel is also run. It will typically show low flow down the transsulfuration pathway as evidenced by low cystathionine, as well as low glycine and high sarcosine, which indicate that the glycine N-methyltransferase reaction is running fast in order to prevent too high a ratio of SAMe to SAH and thus overdriving the methyltransferase reactions. I've seen this type of pattern in test results from three people who used these high dosages.

When someone "plateaus" on this type of treatment, so far it looks to me as though they are deficient in one or more of the vitamin or mineral cofactors that are needed. That's why a multi is included in the simplified methylation protoocol. People tend to go low in things like zinc or magnesium or some of the B vitamins, and that can limit the recovery of the methylation cycle and related pathways.

Transdermal glutathione cream helps some people, while others can't tolerate it. I think it's worth a try to add it. It may cut down on the excitotoxicity that many people experience with this type of treatment.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[fibrodude84]

I don't understand any of this Methyl stuff but have been on 15mg of Deplin for 10 days now and don't feel better or worse. Not sure what to expect with it.