B12--How much B2 needed to assimilate?

[gu3vara]

Thanks so much Rich--that helps a lot!

I am not getting the "improved symptoms" or "distressing reactions" that some have experienced when increasing B2, so perhaps I am getting enough! I had been supplementing with the coenzymated, sublingual form that you mentioned several years ago when you noted that my B2 was low.

Thanks again,
Sushi

I understand Rich theory on this but I can say that, from my own experience, that taking b2 with no b complex (I still take about 100 mcg of b12 daily, with magnesium and manganese) feels totally different than when I take a b complex. I didn't feel anything from a b complex while b2 alone quickly reduced some symptoms I had for years, like purple nail beds (cyanosis) and that says a lot! I also have a strong metal taste in mouth at times, which is expected when excess iron is released from liver according to the theory.

I don't know if I'll end up with other B deficiencies that limit my progress at some point, but clearly people don't have a startup effect from the same amount of b2 in a B complex. Don't know about b12 specifically though. 10 mg of B2 alone was enough to cause a big startup.

Hope this helps!

 

[justy]

Hi, i still havent found any evidence to show that a B2 deficiency causes excess iron to accumulate in the liver, or that taking B2 will release it into the body. The only thing i could find was this, and it relates to rats. The accepted wisdom is that this is what happens in humans too.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3676194

Justy.

 

[adreno]

Hi, i still havent found any evidence to show that a B2 deficiency causes excess iron to accumulate in the liver, or that taking B2 will release it into the body. The only thing i could find was this, and it relates to rats. The accepted wisdom is that this is what happens in humans too.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3676194

Justy.

Good find. There's quite a few related studies listed. All I looked at stated that riboflavin deficiency causes a decrease in iron absorption and storage. The iron seems to be lost in the feces, not the liver. I could quote some studies, but I fear this is getting off topic. Maybe we should move this discussion to the HMA thread.

 

[justy]

I agree Adreno, maybe i should go and post it over there too. Thanks.

 

[gu3vara]

Then, to be conservative, I'll say that I had a metal taste in mouth at times since taking b2, whatever that means biologically.

 

[garcia]

I understand Rich theory on this but I can say that, from my own experience, that taking b2 with no b complex (I still take about 100 mcg of b12 daily, with magnesium and manganese) feels totally different than when I take a b complex. I didn't feel anything from a b complex while b2 alone quickly reduced some symptoms I had for years, like purple nail beds (cyanosis) and that says a lot! I also have a strong metal taste in mouth at times, which is expected when excess iron is released from liver according to the theory.

I don't know if I'll end up with other B deficiencies that limit my progress at some point, but clearly people don't have a startup effect from the same amount of b2 in a B complex. Don't know about b12 specifically though. 10 mg of B2 alone was enough to cause a big startup.

Hope this helps!

Great post gu3vara! In science observation is king. My observations have matched yours, that b2 is doing something which my b-complex wasn't (even though I was getting 50mg b2 from my b-complex). The Simplified Methylation Protocol failed badly for me, as it did for many others. We need and deserve answers. I am hoping B2 will be part of the explanation.

 

[gu3vara]

Same thing for me garcia, all the SMP and Freddd active protocol did for me was increase chemical sensitivities, skin problems and make me feel on speed. I'm glad for their work and it really do help some people but not me, unfortunately.

 

[Hanna]

I am on the same boat, have followed methylation protocole for more of one year without much success. Perhaps, this has made some preexistent imbalance in essential nutrients like the B's more problematic. I plan to give B2 supplementation (with manganese) a try.

 

[taniaaust1]

What would be useful would be to find out exactly which clinical signs to look for (not for dogs but for humans!). Not those of heavy riboflavin deficiency which are known, but the early signs.
What should we look for?

Asklipia

I studied Nutrition for a couple of years in collage.. so Ive just looked it up it up from my notes from the B2 lecture, posted below.

"B2- Riboflavin deficiency symptoms
- cracks in corners of mouth
- magenta coloured tongue (reddish/purple)
- red eyes (they are often rubbed as they feel like they have grit in them)
- scaly skin on forehead
- skin rash around lips
- scrotum rash"

Other notes Ive got written down for it are -" Toxicity unknown.. RDA 1.7mg/day..
A typical Naturopath thou recommendation for B2 is 5mg per day or B complex 15-50mg " (so it seems that more is needed if its in a B complex)

"Breaks down CHO, protein and lipids
Supports hair, skin and nail health
Promotes growth
Promotes fertility
Promotes iron absorption
Helps convert trypophane? (sp?) to niacin (B3)

Sources
dairy products, brewers yeast, mushrooms, wheat germ, fish, eggs, dried fruit

B2 Breaks down in light but is resistant to heat and oxidation"

Since the B vitamins participate together in the energy metabolism, it is a good idea to supplement them together. The reason is that if a person is deficient in one of them, she/he also is likely to be deficient in others, because the foods that supply B2 tend to be the same ones that supply the other B vitamins

Im completely with what Rich is saying...with this. We were always told in Nutrition class that if a person is deficient in one of the Bs they are likely to be deficient in other of the Bs.

 

[Rand56]

I am on the same boat, have followed methylation protocole for more of one year without much success. Perhaps, this has made some preexistent imbalance in essential nutrients like the B's more problematic. I plan to give B2 supplementation (with manganese) a try.

hi Hanna

Can I ask if you taking manganese was something Christine told you to specifically take for your situation or is it for another reason?

 

[Hanna]

hi Hanna

Can I ask if you taking manganese was something Christine told you to specifically take for your situation or is it for another reason?

Yes, it was one the big deficiencies that Christine saw in my charts and suggested to supplement with B2.
I was told a few years ago by a naturopath to take it also (and took it during several months but without seeing any noticeable change in my health).

 

[Rand56]

Yes, it was one the big deficiencies that Christine saw in my charts and suggested to supplement with B2.
I was told a few years ago by a naturopath to take it also (and took it during several months but without seeing any noticeable change in my health).

OK great

 

[froufox]

I get the metal in the mouth taste too gu3vara, its a pretty regular symptom for me...I can literally feel the sensations of metals coming out of my teeth! (I had my mercury amalgams removed years ago). Ive had this symptom for a while, pre taking B2, and also when I was doing the pyroluria protocol this year, and Ive definitely had it more so the last few days since taking the B2 and a bit of extra manganese. It can get pretty extreme at times...I often get excess saliva alongside the metal taste, and sometimes I end up going to the bathroom literally every few minutes (!) to spit the excess saliva out! However it always feels like a good thing to me because when it starts to calm down, I usually feel some improvements. I guess it could be both unbound copper and iron coming out... I suspect nickel too as Ive had a longstanding problem with that.

Ive been feeling pretty bad the last few days and I'm particularly bad today....definitely seem to be getting more neurological signs & symptoms alongside the metal taste and excess saliva. Ive been twitching more, feeling clumsy and weak and quite crashy adrenal wise, and my brain function is very poor. Hoping that it is all a good sign as Ive been through similar episodes before. Is anyone else feeling like this?

 

[gu3vara]

I get the metal in the mouth taste too gu3vara, its a pretty regular symptom for me...I can literally feel the sensations of metals coming out of my teeth! (I had my mercury amalgams removed years ago). Ive had this symptom for a while, pre taking B2, and also when I was doing the pyroluria protocol this year, and Ive definitely had it more so the last few days since taking the B2 and a bit of extra manganese. It can get pretty extreme at times...I often get excess saliva alongside the metal taste, and sometimes I end up going to the bathroom literally every few minutes (!) to spit the excess saliva out! However it always feels like a good thing to me because when it starts to calm down, I usually feel some improvements. I guess it could be both unbound copper and iron coming out... I suspect nickel too as Ive had a longstanding problem with that.

Ive been feeling pretty bad the last few days and I'm particularly bad today....definitely seem to be getting more neurological signs & symptoms alongside the metal taste and excess saliva. Ive been twitching more, feeling clumsy and weak and quite crashy adrenal wise, and my brain function is very poor. Hoping that it is all a good sign as Ive been through similar episodes before. Is anyone else feeling like this?

It's been pretty intense for a couple days too, I feel like that something is changing oxygen-wise, like I need more oxygen than is supplied or something like this, a sore throat also and excess mucus. I hope it will eventually lead to functional improvement, for once, I feel confident it will really pay off.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I had a miserable night last with hardly any sleep, worse than the past 2 nights.

At about 4 am I took 8 mg of coenzymated B1, roughly 250 mcg of MB12 and another dose of tryptophan and magnesium. This usually helps me get some sleep, but this time it did nothing. So I took a tiny dose (roughly 6-7 mg) of B2--the first time I had taken it in a week or so. Unfortunately the B2 made me even more agitated instead of relaxing me. So an hour later I took another 250 mcg of B12, and finally I got a 2 hours of sleep. This morning I am fried.

Why is the B2 helping others sleep, but it won't help me? In fact it often does the opposite, which is really frustrating. I want sleep so badly. I got my hair test kit yesterday and will send it off as soon as I can. Hopefully this will give some answers that will help balance my nervous system and get me the sleep I need.

 

[gu3vara]

Sorry you are sleeping so badly DB

Have you try taking magnesium and manganese with the b2? (about 75% of the rda of both in supplement form is what I'm taking since I started b2). I split the manganese in 3 doses.

Perhaps it could help you, not sure!

I sleep better on the b2 than on the methylation protocols so far. But I was sleeping fine without meds before the methylation protocol too, so I hope it will last.

 

[froufox]

Sorry you're going through a rough time too gu3vara, I hope you're right and something fundamental is changing and it leads to lasting improvements for you!

Sorry you had such a rough night's sleep DB...i have to say that although i was sleeping much better on some nights, ive had a couple of rough nights sleep just recently too....this usually happens to me when im detoxing metals (eg copper) alongside the other symptoms ive mentioned like the metal in the mouth taste, plus on and off headaches and more fatigue. From what I understand about copper detox, that can lead to an exacerbation in insomnia...so i wonder if its that? Also maybe that is linked with with stuck in sympathetic mode (due to detox) preventing your body from being able to relax properly? Just a thought. Hope u get a good nights sleep soon!

 

[hixxy]

In this trial, more than 5000 people were given 50mg B6, 2.5mg folic acid, and 1mg B12 daily for 5 years. No improvement in cardiovascular health was seen, but interestingly, no serious adverse effects were reported. Seemingly, none of them developed a B2 deficiency.

Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16531613/

You're making a big assumption there based on omission. My interpretation of that study is that other than the b6, folic acid and b12 not helping, we don't know a whole lot else.