Fecal Transplants: Seriously, What Do We Think?

[slayadragon]

Previously on this board, there has been some discussion of fecal transplants.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...oms-of-Parkinson-s-(and-CFS)&highlight=faecal

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...herapy)-DIY-home-version-very-straightforward


Here, Dr. Sarah Myhill talks about the do-it-yourself procedure:

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Faecal_bacteriotherapy


Here are a bunch of articles suggesting that this is a perfectly legitimate form of treatment at least for treatment of c. difficile, but possibly for a wide variety of conditions:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ome-fecal-transplants-to-cure-disease/251793/

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...1/the_enema_of_your_enemy_is_your_friend.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/p...=fecal-transplants-the-straight-poop-12-01-31

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=swapping-germs

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDcia_uqf3k


So backing up a bit: I don't think that the gut dysbiosis is the core "cause" of CFS. I think that this is a disease that is at its core one of toxicity, and specifically a biotoxin illness.

However, biotoxins have all kinds of negative effects on the body. For instance, the reason that some species of mold makes poison is to kill off competitive microorganisms in the environment, so that it can grow more widely. If mold poison can kill off environmental bacteria, then it makes sense to me that it would do the same thing in the gut -- wiping out a variety of normal bacteria and leaving a few odd (and possibly pathogenic) strains to flourish.

I have made tremendous progress with my health over the past four years. However, in general -- and in particular during the last year -- my gut has taken a real beating. I did a whole lot of detox of various toxins through my gut, and I also identified a really problematic parasite (a fish tapeworm) in my small intestine that released a lot of toxins when it died.

So my gut is a mess at the moment. I've been using a variety of treatments (including homemade kefir, homemade probiotic yogurt, herbs and diet) to ease it back into shape, but it still seems to have a ways to go.

Maybe it will heal up on its own. But considering how effective fecal transplants seem to be in restoring gut ecology almost immediately, I'm sort of interested.

I actually have a candidate for this: a colonics therapist who has an interest in this with regard to her work. She is in her 30's, has lived her whole life in Palm Springs (a place where I run into tons of people who have recovered from CFS "spontaneously" -- it feels good to me too, toxin-wise), has no health problems, has a 10-year-old son with no health or behavior problems, seems wholly emotionally stable, has a pretty healthy diet and looks radiant. She says if we go ahead with it, she would start a blog about it.

So I'm kind of thinking about doing this.

In truth, probably I can get my gut in shape regardless. I'm just kind of curious to see how well this would work.

Is anyone familiar with any CFS patients who have already done this?

Does anybody have any thoughts?

Best, Lisa

 

[SickOfSickness]

If I were you, I'd do it. Well, I'd probably want her screened like Dr. Myhill's link says.

 

[determined]

I'd try it if I had a donor I really knew. I've read about this and heard a scientist on Science Friday who said that this works, but the NIH can't fund anything until the FDA classifies it, and apparently they don't know how to proceed. So not much is happening.

 

[pamb]

Thanks! You have me thinking about doing this for John as his gut problems are sure there. Myhill's link is great - naming labs and all. I just don't know where we'd find a donor, as I'm not in great shape in that department. hmmmm. we have a good and healthy friend a couple hundred miles away. hmmmm

 

[SaraM]

http://thepowerofpoo.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-02-05T17:34:00+11:00&max-results=500

 

[Shellbell]

Thank you Sara for the reference. This is interesting.

 

[Rockt]

I thought this made a lot of sense awhile ago and did some research. Works great for c.diff. I contacted some docs who were in favour of the procedure for c.diff. - of course not many responded - 2 or 3 did write back saying it would be highly experimental and they doubted there would be benefit. I recall having a conversation about this with Redo, who seemed to know a lot about it and either tried it or knew someone who did. Don't think it was successful though.

 

[globalpilot]

I've done it and had no observable effects. However, i also have a fermenting upper gut and possibly bad microbes in the lower too. I'm going to work on those issues now and then do more implant enemas.

I thought this made a lot of sense awhile ago and did some research. Works great for c.diff. I contacted some docs who were in favour of the procedure for c.diff. - of course not many responded - 2 or 3 did write back saying it would be highly experimental and they doubted there would be benefit. I recall having a conversation about this with Redo, who seemed to know a lot about it and either tried it or knew someone who did. Don't think it was successful though.

 

[perrier]

I've done it and had no observable effects. However, i also have a fermenting upper gut and possibly bad microbes in the lower too. I'm going to work on those issues now and then do more implant enemas.

I just read an article, "Fecal Microbiota Transplantation and emerging applications," in Nature.com. I had to pay for the article. It is written by the famous physician, Dr. T. Borody, dated Feb. 2012.

He says in the article he has done this on CFS patients, with some success. He gives a reference for this, however, when I then traced his reference and found it, it referred to a study he did in 1995.

This is now over 12 years ago. Nevertheless, he had success in 40% of patients, who expressed improvement by 50%.

I do not know if since that time he has had CFS patients.

He did the implant via colonoscopy procedure once and then via enema.

However, the article is fabulously interesting for it argues that many conditions can be improved with fecal transplantation. He is even suggesting that a bank be kept, etc.

I am also very interested in trying this, however, the caution he gives is that the donor must be well screened for viruses, etc.

Kind regards, Helene

 

[merylg]

Here's another faecal transplant success story...http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/04/19/3194662.htm#artBookmarks

 

[alexa]

i talked about fecal transplants with KDM since my mom ( a doctor) read a lot of intresting reseach about it, he said that it would help but only for 10 weeks about, then the faulty bacteria would grow back...

 

[Rrrr]

dr borody published an abstract in oct 2012 that said he got a 58-70% success rate with this procedure and ME/CFS patients

http://www.eventscribe.com/2012/acg/ajaxcalls/ajaxcalls/AddRemovePosterLikes.asp?PosterID=6110&PosterNumber=P362&PosterTitle=Bacteriotherapy in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome %28CFS%29: A Retrospective Review

Program Number: P362 Day / Time: Sunday, Oct 21, 3:30 PM – 7:00 PM

Bacteriotherapy in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS): A Retrospective Review



Conclusion: Bacteriotherapy achieves initial success rate of 70% in CFS and 58% sustained response. This result is favourable when compared with current therapies where fewer than 10% recover fully and a further 10%-20% worsen during follow-up1. Given that manipulation of the colonic microbiota improved CFS symptoms, bacteriotherapy for CFS warrants further investigation. Furthermore, the pathophysiology of CFS could be in part explained by enteric derived toxin-releasing bacteria capable of producing systemic effects.

 

[beaverfury]

i talked about fecal transplants with KDM since my mom ( a doctor) read a lot of intresting reseach about it, he said that it would help but only for 10 weeks about, then the faulty bacteria would grow back...

Maybe keep some in the fridge and transplant every ten weeks!

I found this while googling ,
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/managing-human-waste-in-the-wild/bjn1lvtHsGc
Update : As some of you may know I have been running labs on the
survival of bacteria in feces since last October in a specially
designed
cold chamber that simulates the temperature cycles on the surface of
the
lower [Kahiltna] glacier [7,200 feet at 63 degrees latitude in
Alaska]. After 125 days of 24 hr. freeze thaw cycles and exposure to
UV light all of the bacteria is still very alive and well!

We are getting really close to have a full report of all the work we
have done to date, including a full run-down of my simulated
laboratory experiment. We are hoping to also get it published in a
Wilderness Management Journal, so the info may be more useful for you
all in its final form. But by all means you should share the take
home message: fecal bacteria is quite resilient and as far as we can
tell, fecal bacteria is preserved in arctic/freezing environment for
long periods of time.
From: Katie Goodwin <katie.g...@gmail.com>
Alaska Pacific University Waste Project
Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM

 

[beaverfury]

I look forward to the day when we can go to the fridge and slam down a cold one to keep our gut bi-ome in line
(...with something a bit more effective than yakult).

RE; freezing fecal bacteria. Firmicutes to bacteroidetes ratio
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22325006
In seven of nine cases, the Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes 16S rRNA gene ratio was significantly higher in fecal samples that had been frozen compared to identical samples that had not. This effect was further supported by qPCR analysis of bacterial groups within these two phyla. The results demonstrate that storage conditions of fecal samples may adversely affect the determined Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes ratio, which is a frequently used biomarker in gut microbiology.

Gut biota, Wiki
The microbes occupying the human gut are also in direct relation to obesity. A shift in the ratio between bacterial divisions Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes can be observed in lean and obese individuals—in the latter, a shift towards Firmicutes can be observed. The ratio between Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes dynamically reflects the overall weight condition of an individual, shifting towards Bacteroidetes if an obese individual loses weight.

All in all, it may not be as simple as swallowing a 'fecal fizz'.
But i've read there are efforts underway by researchers trying to replicate some of the 500 or so human gut bacteria beyond the piddly two dozen weve got in probiotics at the moment.

As with everything else in the me/cfs world..... HURRY UP!!!!!!!!

 

[beaverfury]

Go here as well, http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-study-58-70-recovery-rate.20430/#post-311398 to pull all this crap together

 

[garcia]

dr borody published an abstract in oct 2012 that said he got a 58-70% success rate with this procedure and ME/CFS patients

Above link should be:
http://www.eventscribe.com/2012/acg/ajaxcalls/postersinfo.asp?title=6110

I just read an article, "Fecal Microbiota Transplantation and emerging applications," in Nature.com. I had to pay for the article. It is written by the famous physician, Dr. T. Borody, dated Feb. 2012.

Article can be read/downloaded for free here:
http://www.2ndchance.info/inflambowel-Borody2012.pdf

 

[MishMash]

Very compelling!! Probably works.

But very gross.

 

[Daffodil]

how long did the improvement last? i heard the CFS symptoms come back after a while.