Folate Issues & Methylation

[maddietod]

It's coming in the mail!

Think Sam-e would help, particularly?

 

[Freddd]

It's coming in the mail!

Think Sam-e would help, particularly?

Maybe, but I would wait until things quiert down so that you will know whether it helps or not.

 

[maddietod]

Hi, Freddd,

Your last paragraph implies that you don't have problems with other sources of folates, like fruit and nuts. Do I understand this correctly? I did have some apple and some grapes a few days ago, and nothing happened.

You also mention toast; if you eat wheat bread, what safe brand(s) have you found? If you're GF, are all GF breads safe if they don't say "enriched"? I'm specifically thinking of Udi's and Rudy's, available pretty widely in the US.

Freddd, I'm bumping this from my post #10, above. Any thoughts?

Addition: What's your experience with legumes, specifically peanuts?

 

[Rosebud Dairy]

I tried the Udi's again a couple of weeks ago. I may go back to that as a non-fortified option for school lunch, when I can't give the kids their methylfolate pre-meal load at school.

Has anyone had Metafolin compounded as an oral time release to work around this, like for children? I see so many of my own childhood symptoms in them.

 

[maddietod]

Supplements

For people in the US, I've been researching prices for the Active Protocol supplements. The cheapest sources I've found are iherb and vitacost.

Of these 2 choices:

The douglas labs B-Complex is only available at iherb. The Gamma-E is also only available there, but it's out of stock. The Solgar metafolin costs the same both places. It's pretty easy to spend enough get the free shipping, and if you use the code**, Freddd gets his donation for research.

Everything else is less expensive at vitacost. They sell this gamma-e complex. Freddd, if you see this, I'd like to know if this is OK to use.

I buy fish oil in a bottle at my local vitamin shoppe, store brand. It's easier for me to swallow the liquid than take a ton of pills.

I notice that CoQ-10 isn't in the protocol, and my L-Carnitine Fumarate label says that's a necessary co-factor. Thoughts?


[**"Using the coupon code RED843 will get a person $5 off their first order. This also gives me [Freddd] a $5 credit I use to supply these vitamins to people unable to afford them and further research."]

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, I'm bumping this from my post #10, above. Any thoughts?

Addition: What's your experience with legumes, specifically peanuts?

Hi Madie,

I don't eat any large amount of any of these things. They form the base amount of whatever folate I mught get from them. They probably roll into what it takes me 3200mgc per meal and 12,800 total to overcome. In a meal with say a piece of steak I might have a salad, some winter squash, a steamed potato and some sauteed onions. And the salad would have a lot of leaf lettace, a decent sized carrot cut up, some cucumbers and more or less tomatoes depending upon season, and then some misc things like a radish or other things that strike me as desireable. I do ok as long as I don'rt do that much every day. I especially get intpo trouble when I also have chard and drink the broth from srteaming the chard. That is often the "over the top" amount. Folate is water soluable and so ends up in the water like that. It's easy to eat too much. The whole wheat bread is not fortified but it does contain some folate. I also use wheat germ as a topping rather than bread crumbs for instance. I eat a local bakery whole wheat product. I like a hearty bread rather than whole wheat balloon bread. When I get a new grinder I will go back to making my own whole wheat bread fresh ground to rising in 20 minutes. I also make a pumpkin plus apple etc quick bread with very liittle sugar or fat. The squash keeps it moist without much oil and apple or other fruit keeps it moist and supplies sweetness.

 

[Freddd]

For people in the US, I've been researching prices for the Active Protocol supplements. The cheapest sources I've found are iherb and vitacost.

Of these 2 choices:

The douglas labs B-Complex is only available at iherb. The Gamma-E is also only available there, but it's out of stock. The Solgar metafolin costs the same both places. It's pretty easy to spend enough get the free shipping, and if you use the code, Fred gets his donation for research.

Everything else is less expensive at vitacost. They sell this gamma-e complex. Freddd, if you see this, I'd like to know if this is OK to use.

I buy fish oil in a bottle at my local vitamin shoppe, store brand. It's easier for me to swallow the liquid than to take the pills.

I notice that CoQ-10 isn't in the protocol, and my L-Carnitine Fumarate label says that's a necessary co-factor. Thoughts?

Hi Madie,

In the early stages of healing I and a number of others get high BP from CoQ10. After a year of healing its great and it might be for some people during the early stages but it can also be a problem.

 

[maddietod]

Folate challenges

I'm taking 2 B-Complex daily, am and pm, 400mcg metafolin each, and one Solgar, 800mcg metafolin, at lunchtime.

Test #1, half an hour after the Solgar, kale, wild rice, cashews. I got sleepy, fuzzy brained, and my energy lowered somewhat. Later, my neck got very stiff. Much later, nausea, racing heart, then a headache associated with astonishing tightness in my head/neck. All better in the morning.

Test #2, a week later. After the Solgar, soup from the freezer: some kind of leafy green cooked in the broth, chicken, chestnuts. I got very sleepy all afternoon, fell sound asleep at 9pm. Fine the next day.

Test #3, 2 days later. Peanut M&Ms and a large handful of walnuts for breakfast. Sleepy, brain sluggish. Muscles that had been loosening are tight again (neck, lower back, shoulder joints). Fine in the morning.

Test #4, the next day, today. 2 Solgar with lunch: a huge plate of spring mix lettuces, broccoli, 2 strawberries, cheese, some almonds. In 2 hours, I was sleepy, spacey, and clumsy. I wouldn't have driven any distance or in unfamiliar areas. I bloated alarmingly, not accompanied by gas. I'm much improved 4 hours after the meal, but I still feel very 'quiet.'

So:
I need more metafolin to offset vegetable folates.
I'm obviously sensitive to the folates in nuts, and will switch to macadamias for my one treat - chocolate covered nuts.
I haven't challenged with fruit yet.

 

[L'engle]

OK, so I'm looking at where folate in my diet might be causing a problem. I don't eat wheat bread. I do eat oats however, which I just learned are an 'excellent source of folic acid' . SO I am going to try upping the amount of metafolin I take before foods, in including oats. It looks as though brown rice also has folate, which I should look out for. White rice appears to be nutritionally devoid enough not to be a problem, potatoes as well. Not planning to give up either oats or brown rice, but I will start pre loading metafolin at higher levels. I'll post if anything useful comes of this.

I've been taking 2400mcg metafolin before meals the last couple days, will try 3200. The larger amount of metafolin is giving me a noticeable revival of start-up response, as well as a'sensation' in the back of my head, in conjunction with increased magnesium. On the right track, hopefully. Thanks everybody else for your good info!

 

[Freddd]

I'm taking 2 B-Complex daily, am and pm, 400mcg metafolin each, and one Solgar, 800mcg metafolin, at lunchtime.

Test #1, half an hour after the Solgar, kale, wild rice, cashews. I got sleepy, fuzzy brained, and my energy lowered somewhat. Later, my neck got very stiff. Much later, nausea, racing heart, then a headache associated with astonishing tightness in my head/neck. All better in the morning.

Test #2, a week later. After the Solgar, soup from the freezer: some kind of leafy green cooked in the broth, chicken, chestnuts. I got very sleepy all afternoon, fell sound asleep at 9pm. Fine the next day.

Test #3, 2 days later. Peanut M&Ms and a large handful of walnuts for breakfast. Sleepy, brain sluggish. Muscles that had been loosening are tight again (neck, lower back, shoulder joints). Fine in the morning.

Test #4, the next day, today. 2 Solgar with lunch: a huge plate of spring mix lettuces, broccoli, 2 strawberries, cheese, some almonds. In 2 hours, I was sleepy, spacey, and clumsy. I wouldn't have driven any distance or in unfamiliar areas. I bloated alarmingly, not accompanied by gas. I'm much improved 4 hours after the meal, but I still feel very 'quiet.'

So:
I need more metafolin to offset vegetable folates.
I'm obviously sensitive to the folates in nuts, and will switch to macadamias for my one treat - chocolate covered nuts.
I haven't challenged with fruit yet.

HI Madie,

I try to be able to take enough Metafolin so that I can eat normally as long as I don't overdo it with a veggie feast. The timing and amount is essential. So fart the 3200mcg with each meal and 12,800mcg per day is working out. I'm sorry to hear that you have paradoxical folate deficiency with folinic and veggies, PDF2, as I've started calling it. It's no fun but it can be overcome with timing and enough dose as long as I don't oversdo it with veggie food source folate.

 

[soulfeast]

would someone mind helping me understand what paradoxical folate deficiency is? Do the folates compete and the folicin wins or does it do something to the methyl form t deactivate it?

also... b12 and gluthathione. does glutathione always borrow from or join with mb12 so if you are low in b12 you are lower if you take glut?

what do you do if you are low in glut and have a missing glut gene and low in intracellular mb12?

I started potassium a few days ago but I also stopped folinic and Hb12. Huge difference. Tachy and breathlessness gone, muscles unknotting (the lastest and worst assault) and mucle recovery. I just upped to 800mcg metafolin and taking 10 mg -15 mg of jarrow Mb12 a day.

Im going to start to pay attention to folate foods and see what happens.

Thank you..

 

[soulfeast]

does glutathionylcobalamin help b12 get into cells? if so, what's the problem with the glutathione binding with the Mb12?

Thank you..

 

[Freddd]

does glutathionylcobalamin help b12 get into cells? if so, what's the problem with the glutathione binding with the Mb12?

Thank you..

Hi Soulfeast,

does glutathionylcobalamin help b12 get into cells?

No, It causes most all the b12 to be flushed from the body in hours.

if so, what's the problem with the glutathione binding with the Mb12?

It ends up in the urine in hours. After the b12 is flushed from the body the methylfoalte is flused from the cells (methyl trap) inducing sufdden severe folate deficiency and shortly thereafter mb12 deficiency and then adb12 deficiency.

 

[Freddd]

would someone mind helping me understand what paradoxical folate deficiency is? Do the folates compete and the folicin wins or does it do something to the methyl form t deactivate it?

also... b12 and gluthathione. does glutathione always borrow from or join with mb12 so if you are low in b12 you are lower if you take glut?

what do you do if you are low in glut and have a missing glut gene and low in intracellular mb12?

I started potassium a few days ago but I also stopped folinic and Hb12. Huge difference. Tachy and breathlessness gone, muscles unknotting (the lastest and worst assault) and mucle recovery. I just upped to 800mcg metafolin and taking 10 mg -15 mg of jarrow Mb12 a day.

Im going to start to pay attention to folate foods and see what happens.

Thank you..

Hi Soulfeast,

helping me understand what paradoxical folate deficiency is?

About 20% of people can't convert folic acid to active form. About 30% can convert it to a very limited extent. The other 50% can convert it to about 800mcg. So if a person takes more than they can convert the unconverted folate builds up in the body and for various reasons blocks the methylb12 casue a folate deficiency even though blood tests say you have lots of folate, hence paradoxical folate deficiency. The lite3rature says that large amounts can build up in anybody and be "toxic". I'm calling that pardoxical folate deficiency 1, or PFD1 for short.

Some smaller percentage of people can't convert folinic acid, and that includes vegetable source food folate, to methylfolate. It blocks the methylfolate. I'm calling that paradoxical folate deficiency 2, or PFD2 for short.

b12 and gluthathione. does glutathione always borrow from or join with mb12 so if you are low in b12 you are lower if you take glut?

It combines with the mb12 and adb12 and probaly other forms too. Then it is very quickly filtered out by the kidneys and comes out in the urine. Whe I started glutahtione I was injecting 5mg of mb12 twice a day. It was slightly visible in my urine. With glutathione suddenly my urine was as red as if I was injecting maybe 60mg. Boy did it strip my body of b12 and flush it out, very fast.

 

[maddietod]

I just looked around here, and found that unfortified oats and whole wheat have similar amounts of folic acid. I think Freddd has been saying that he reacts a lot more to folates in vegetables than to the ones in whole wheat. But (a) he takes metafolin with all meals, so the folates in wheat are covered, and (b) we're all different, so I need to figure out my own issues.

That's why I started with a baseline of only eating fish/animal protein before testing individual food categories. Apparently it only takes 24 hours for folic acid to move out of the body. If I'd known this, I could have started testing right away, and I could have tested a new thing every day or two.

An easier way would be to just start taking 3200mcg of metafolin with each meal and be done with this, now that it's clear I have this problem. But I like to graze and snack - I'm not a big meal-eater - so I'd like to know what's "safe" for me.

 

[soulfeast]

Thnks, Freddd.

We have to have glutathione. So is the glutathione has to be used by the body. The body is supposed to make it through methylation? How can it be used and excreted or is it used then combines with the b12 then excreted? Do you have a more detailed explanation already written up here that you can refer me to? Is there supposed to me more Mb12 and Ab12 available to dump with the glut and why does it need it to bond with? That sounds almost sefl destructive of the body unless there is a reason for it that makes sense.

I have decided to experiment and leave the glutathione out as well as folinic, but would of course like to understand why I am doing this (other than some reports are impressive and Ima wondering if I am one of these folks like you as well.

Thank you..

Hi Soulfeast,

helping me understand what paradoxical folate deficiency is?

About 20% of people can't convert folic acid to active form. About 30% can convert it to a very limited extent. The other 50% can convert it to about 800mcg. So if a person takes more than they can convert the unconverted folate builds up in the body and for various reasons blocks the methylb12 casue a folate deficiency even though blood tests say you have lots of folate, hence paradoxical folate deficiency. The lite3rature says that large amounts can build up in anybody and be "toxic". I'm calling that pardoxical folate deficiency 1, or PFD1 for short.

Some smaller percentage of people can't convert folinic acid, and that includes vegetable source food folate, to methylfolate. It blocks the methylfolate. I'm calling that paradoxical folate deficiency 2, or PFD2 for short.

b12 and gluthathione. does glutathione always borrow from or join with mb12 so if you are low in b12 you are lower if you take glut?

It combines with the mb12 and adb12 and probaly other forms too. Then it is very quickly filtered out by the kidneys and comes out in the urine. Whe I started glutahtione I was injecting 5mg of mb12 twice a day. It was slightly visible in my urine. With glutathione suddenly my urine was as red as if I was injecting maybe 60mg. Boy did it strip my body of b12 and flush it out, very fast.

 

[Freddd]

I just looked around here, and found that unfortified oats and whole wheat have similar amounts of folic acid. I think Freddd has been saying that he reacts a lot more to folates in vegetables than to the ones in whole wheat. But (a) he takes metafolin with all meals, so the folates in wheat are covered, and (b) we're all different, so I need to figure out my own issues.

That's why I started with a baseline of only eating fish/animal protein before testing individual food categories. Apparently it only takes 24 hours for folic acid to move out of the body. If I'd known this, I could have started testing right away, and I could have tested a new thing every day or two.

An easier way would be to just start taking 3200mcg of metafolin with each meal and be done with this, now that it's clear I have this problem. But I like to graze and snack - I'm not a big meal-eater - so I'd like to know what's "safe" for me.

I think Freddd has been saying that he reacts a lot more to folates in vegetables than to the ones in whole wheat.

It's the same folate as in all veggies, no diffrerence. The folinic acid is more of a problem than folic acid which is artificial and not found narturally in food.

 

[maddietod]

Freddd -

Ahhh. So you react equally to all sources of folinic acid, and there's a cap on the daily amount you can balance with metafolin. Is that correct?

This makes my testing of individual food categories useless - saves me some time!

I went out to lunch today where salad was my overall safest choice. So I took 4 Solgar (yes, finally listening to you!) and I'm fine. Looks like I'll be changing my eating habits from grazing to meals.

I'm clearly adept at getting wrong ideas and sticking to them. So please bear with me while I ask about my next plan.

I now have a "new normal" baseline for how I feel and function. It's been almost 3 weeks since I shifted off folic/folinic acid sources and added metafolin. At that time I added all of your co-factors, I continued using hydroxy b12 (from my 9 months on the SMP), and I didn't add the jarrow, source naturals, or enzymatic therapy b12s. [I just like to make my changes one at a time.]

I have everything on-hand, including potassium. I would like to be able to distinguish the benefits of the adb12 from the benefits of mb12, especially since I might only need the adb12 once a week.

Does it make any difference which I add first (mb12 or abd12)?

If I choose to start with lower doses (quarter or half tablet), how long should I wait before increasing? Meaning, how long does it take each of these b12s to build up to maximum saturation at a given dose?

I know this is a lot of questions. I very much appreciate your generous sharing of time and experience.

Madie

 

[Rosebud Dairy]

Hi Maddie,

I am now on the FAP with some pretty high doses, can't remember them all of course.

I neglected potassium at first and paid dearly with some heavy potassium drops.

If you have a heavy period, potassium is critical.

The timing of your methylfolate dose MAY be critical BEFORE MEALS.

YES --YOU MIGHT NEED TO TAKE METHYLFOLATE BEFORE EVERY MEAL.
YOU MIGHT NEED TO TAKE METHYLFOLATE BEFORE EVERY MEAL.

If you have a return of 5-10 symptoms after NOT taking m-folate before meals, then it would be wise to consider timing the m-folate before meals.

 

[maddietod]

Rosebud, thanks. I'll try this. I am having a struggle after taking 4 solgar with dinner last night. If the pre-load is necessary, how long does it take metafolin to get where it needs to go, before eating?