The Awesome Foursome + Phosphatidyl serine

[L'engle]

Hi, Magnesium - has cured my cramps and helped my restless leg a lot.
Acetyl l carnitine i cant tolerate - it makes me wired
CO Q 10 - can only tolerate in low doses - makes me wired
D Ribose i cant take as it can affect blood sugar and i have hypoglycaemia.
These are all recommended for all by Dr Myhill and i am supposed to take 300mg a day of Q10 but can only take 30mg. She tells me she has never heard of anyone feeling wired on COQ10.

I've felt wired on Co-q10, too.

 

[L'engle]

I've now got magnesium oil, to spell off the magnesium tablets and be able to take more. I've tried so far applying it to the back of my neck and leaving it for a while, then rinsing with a damp cloth when it starts to feel dry. I figure this will help headache constriction in the back of the neck and head, since it is right there. I've been improving headaches by taking magnesium chloride.

Anyone know how much magnesium oil to apply? I just used a few drops.

 

[Freddd]

I've now got magnesium oil, to spell off the magnesium tablets and be able to take more. I've tried so far applying it to the back of my neck and leaving it for a while, then rinsing with a damp cloth when it starts to feel dry. I figure this will help headache constriction in the back of the neck and head, since it is right there. I've been improving headaches by taking magnesium chloride.

Anyone know how much magnesium oil to apply? I just used a few drops.

I don't have an answer for that, but without ENOUGH magnesium b12 doesn't work. In that sense it is one of those critical basic nutrition factors.

 

[Uno]

Great thread. I am finding quite a success taking NADH with D-Ribose, Rhodiola, MethylB-12, active B6 formula, Magnesium, Glycine and Cartnine. I only recently added the magnesium back in as I was on Magnesium Malate which left me sitting on the loo for hours, now I am on chelate. My pain has definitely lessened.

I didn't realise how successful this combination was until I was hospitalised and I was off the protocol for a month and I was so ill I couldn't lift my head off the pillow, I thought I was going to die I was so sick. I can now get out of bed, potter around for an hour or so with rests and type online. I still can't go out much but I am no longer bedbound which in comparison to how I was off the protocol is 100 times better. Grateful for small mercies here!

The NADH is definitely one to add in if you take MethylB-12 in my opinion as it fuels the ATP.

 

[Freddd]

Great thread. I am finding quite a success taking NADH with D-Ribose, Rhodiola, MethylB-12, active B6 formula, Magnesium, Glycine and Cartnine. I only recently added the magnesium back in as I was on Magnesium Malate which left me sitting on the loo for hours, now I am on chelate. My pain has definitely lessened.

I didn't realise how successful this combination was until I was hospitalised and I was off the protocol for a month and I was so ill I couldn't lift my head off the pillow, I thought I was going to die I was so sick. I can now get out of bed, potter around for an hour or so with rests and type online. I still can't go out much but I am no longer bedbound which in comparison to how I was off the protocol is 100 times better. Grateful for small mercies here!

The NADH is definitely one to add in if you take MethylB-12 in my opinion as it fuels the ATP.

Hi Uno,

I didn't realise how successful this combination was until I was hospitalised and I was off the protocol for a month and I was so ill I couldn't lift my head off the pillow, I thought I was going to die I was so sick

Sometimes it takes something like this to see the real differences.

The NADH is definitely one to add in if you take MethylB-12 in my opinion as it fuels the ATP

Perhaps it is time for adb12, l-carnitne fumarate and Metafolin.

 

[Uno]

I am holding back as they think I have Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis and am really sick - am waiting to see what the doctors say as I don't know how the protocol works with the liver, especially as I may be put on steroids. I also have just been diagnosed with Cushings (having a fun time at the moment) so it's all a bit of a mess.

Have made a post about the PSC and Methylation anyway.

I do have a folate deficiency, raised glutathione and raised copper but am waiting to see what the doctors say.

 

[hixxy]

If you get no improvement on ANY mitochodrial supporting supplements, wouldn't this imply that the problem may be elsewhere? Just a thought..

hixxy

Hi topaz

I've been taking acetyl l carnitine, d-ribose, magnesium and CoQ10 for about 10 months, as well as a lot of other supplements. I've had no improvement. I tried them years ago as well for a shorter time, with no change in symptoms.

I took phosphatidylserine for over a year as part of Rich van K's simplified methylation protocol. Again, no improvement.

When I had cortisol tested a few years ago, it was high. Not sure what it is now, but I have the same wired symptoms.

Hope this is helpful.

Jenny

 

[Jenny]

If you get no improvement on ANY mitochodrial supporting supplements, wouldn't this imply that the problem may be elsewhere? Just a thought..

hixxy

Indeed. I don't think the root of the problem in ME is with the mitochondria. My feeling these days is its more to do with HPA axis dysfunction causing problems with the regulation of a whole host of bodily systems.

 

[Freddd]

If you get no improvement on ANY mitochodrial supporting supplements, wouldn't this imply that the problem may be elsewhere? Just a thought..

hixxy

Hi Hixxy,

The problem is far more complicated than your question suggests, at least in the pssible solutions. I'll mention a few of the complications. First, there is the tremendous difference by brands. Some brands are much more effective than other brands of purportedly the "same" substance. So things I have found or other people, that makes a difference by brand includes at least mb12, adb12, SAM-e, L-carnitine fumarate, omega3 oils. Sometimes the difference is the source of the substance that is packaged by the brand. Sometimes it is different form. So Krill oil may be different from a different fish oil. Coq10 comes in 2 forms, one of which is probably more effective. Some differences are knock your socks off difference, some are minor that only some people notice. L-carnitine comes in at least half a dozen varieties made by many different companies, packaged by even more different companies.

Sometimes there are things that have to occur FIRST before mito treatment for example might be effective. Suppose there are 10 different treatments possible, each coming in 1000 combinations of brands and forms and that only 3 or 4 of those many thousands of forms and combinations and brands are effective but only if you a, b, and c first. I found that I had to revisit things over and over. I had to do the same or variations each time I made a differrent successful change. Order can be very important.

 

[SaraM]

Magnesium, Ubiquinol CoQ 10, ALA : make me more tired and dizzy(probably lower my blood glucose or blood pressure)

Ribose, Acetyl L Carnitine: felt no benefit

 

[topaz]

Hi Hixxy,

The problem is far more complicated than your question suggests, at least in the pssible solutions. I'll mention a few of the complications. First, there is the tremendous difference by brands. Some brands are much more effective than other brands of purportedly the "same" substance. So things I have found or other people, that makes a difference by brand includes at least mb12, adb12, SAM-e, L-carnitine fumarate, omega3 oils. Sometimes the difference is the source of the substance that is packaged by the brand. Sometimes it is different form. So Krill oil may be different from a different fish oil. Coq10 comes in 2 forms, one of which is probably more effective. Some differences are knock your socks off difference, some are minor that only some people notice. L-carnitine comes in at least half a dozen varieties made by many different companies, packaged by even more different companies.

Sometimes there are things that have to occur FIRST before mito treatment for example might be effective. Suppose there are 10 different treatments possible, each coming in 1000 combinations of brands and forms and that only 3 or 4 of those many thousands of forms and combinations and brands are effective but only if you a, b, and c first. I found that I had to revisit things over and over. I had to do the same or variations each time I made a differrent successful change. Order can be very important.

Freddd

could you share your preferred brands of SAMe, L-carnitine fumarate omega 3 oils and coq10 please?

Do you take 5HTP? If so, do you have a preferred brand? I took Thorne but switched recently to Natural Factors (DR Murray recommended) but really dont like this and am keen to switch back to Thorne or another brand once finished.

Do you take a separate P5P aside from the Douglas LAbs Multi B? I take the DL Multi B but would like to supplement with a little additional p5p and have read that p5P should be enteric coated. Do you have a view on this?

Thank you

 

[Freddd]

Freddd

could you share your preferred brands of SAMe, L-carnitine fumarate omega 3 oils and coq10 please?

Do you take 5HTP? If so, do you have a preferred brand? I took Thorne but switched recently to Natural Factors (DR Murray recommended) but really dont like this and am keen to switch back to Thorne or another brand once finished.

Do you take a separate P5P aside from the Douglas LAbs Multi B? I take the DL Multi B but would like to supplement with a little additional p5p and have read that p5P should be enteric coated. Do you have a view on this?

Thank you

Hi Topaz,


Do you take 5HTP?

No. It gave me terrible headaches. Further there is the caution listed below. I had come across this eslewhere. While it is a hypothetical problem and not proven to occur, somehow I always end up on the wrong side of these things and that if something can go wrong for me it will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_fibrosis
However, the tryptophan derivative 5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan), used in the treatment of depression, raises blood serotonin level considerably[citation needed]. It has yet to be reported to be associated with valve disease or other fibrosis, but for the previous theoretical reasons, it has been suggested as a possible danger.

When 5-HTP is used in medicine, it is generally administered along with carbidopa,[22][23] which prevents the peripheral decarboxylation of 5-HTP to serotonin and so ensures that only brain serotonin levels are increased without producing peripheral side effects, however 5-HTP is also sold without carbidopa as a dietary supplement, and may have increased risks when taken by itself without carbidopa.


could you share your preferred brands of SAMe, L-carnitine fumarate omega 3 oils and coq10 please?

For SAM-e I do have a brand preference and that is NatureMade. I have tried some others and none of them seemed to work as well. I have not tested them well enough say for sure if there is a brand difference or a Freddd difference.


L-carnitine fumarate - I am still using the Jarrow I had previously bought before they discontinued it. Dr's Best has the same L-carnitine fumarate made by the same manufacturer. Others have expressed a definite brand preference for these two.

Omega3 oils - Right now I have no brand preference. I am using the enteric coated oil caps from Kirtland (Costco hosue brand). I am going to orderr some Krill oil that has been reccomended as superior by one of the pain clinic practitioners I go to. It is about half price if you order 12 bottles on line. I can find the brand if you want. They advertise themselves as wholesale to the public (if you buy enough) and they have only one product.

CoQ10 - I have no preferred brand but I keep looking to see if I can find one that makes a noticable difference.

I do take p5p. I am mostly taking b separates currently with just a very basic b-complex at the heart of things. I have no idea if enteric coating is better and have no trouble with the ones I've tried.

 

[maddietod]

Hi Topaz,

L-carnitine fumarate - I am still using the Jarrow I had previously bought before they discontinued it. Dr's Best has the same L-carnitine fumarate made by the same manufacturer. Others have expressed a definite brand preference for these two.

I recently bought Jarrow L-Carnitine Fumarate 500. It's available (USA) from

iherb: http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-L-Carnitine-500-500-mg-100-Veggie-Caps/136?at=0

and vitacost: http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-L-Carnitine-500-50-Vegetarian-Capsules

I've given the links, because you have to search hard to find it.

 

[therron]

I am holding back as they think I have Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis and am really sick - am waiting to see what the doctors say as I don't know how the protocol works with the liver, especially as I may be put on steroids. I also have just been diagnosed with Cushings (having a fun time at the moment) so it's all a bit of a mess.

Have made a post about the PSC and Methylation anyway.

I do have a folate deficiency, raised glutathione and raised copper but am waiting to see what the doctors say.

I'm so sorry you are in a rough patch. I hope that you will be able to make some improvements soon.

 

[topaz]

I recently bought Jarrow L-Carnitine Fumarate 500. It's available (USA) from

iherb: http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-L-Carnitine-500-500-mg-100-Veggie-Caps/136?at=0

and vitacost: http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-L-Carnitine-500-50-Vegetarian-Capsules

I've given the links, because you have to search hard to find it.

thanks Madietodd

I am using Dr Best L-Carnitine Fumarate at present. It is so difficult to work out which brand to buy when youre shopping on iHerb. I tend to see which ones have the highest rating from the highest number of reviewers but this is far from a fool-proof method as Freddd would attest to given his experience with sublingual B12 brands (even some of his one star brands are very highly rated!). I tried a similar approach when selecting 5 HTP and ended up with NAtural Factors as it was Dr Murray (5 HTP book author) recommended but am not happy with that product. Sometimes I wonder if its best to stick to practitioner brands???

 

[Freddd]

thanks Madietodd

I am using Dr Best L-Carnitine Fumarate at present. It is so difficult to work out which brand to buy when youre shopping on iHerb. I tend to see which ones have the highest rating from the highest number of reviewers but this is far from a fool-proof method as Freddd would attest to given his experience with sublingual B12 brands (even some of his one star brands are very highly rated!). I tried a similar approach when selecting 5 HTP and ended up with NAtural Factors as it was Dr Murray (5 HTP book author) recommended but am not happy with that product. Sometimes I wonder if its best to stick to practitioner brands???

Hi Topaz,

It's worse than that. I've talked to people that gave Jarrow bad reviews for causing a lot of startup effects and good reviews for the brands that did nothing instead of lots of things.

 

[rydra_wong]

Has anyone tried the awesome foursome as a treatment and if so, any positive feedback?

The awesome foursome comprise: l-carnitine, d-ribose, magnesium and CoQ10. These are essential to the ATP cycle and fundamental to cellular energy metabolism. There is quite a lot of positive promotion of the awesome foursome on the web.

I note that Freddd recommends lcarnitine (fumarate) and d-ribose as 'possibly critical co-factors'.

Q: Why is fumarate the preferred form of l carnitine as opposed to acetyl l carnitine?

Q: Has anyone had any experience with phosphatidylserine? I have heard that this is very beneficial combined with d-ribose.

I plan to embark on the awsome foursome and will try the phosphatidylserine as I need to get my cortisol down (it is very very high) and that is one of about five supplements that I will order to attempt to get the cortisol (night time) down.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.

I hop eFreddd told you that aB12 is also part of the Kreb (energy) cycle. Yes, Velha had complete remission of chronic fatigue with Fredd's protocol (slow but steady approach) and some huge amount of carnitine.

 

[rydra_wong]

Freddd

could you share your preferred brands of SAMe, L-carnitine fumarate omega 3 oils and coq10 please?

Do you take 5HTP? If so, do you have a preferred brand? I took Thorne but switched recently to Natural Factors (DR Murray recommended) but really dont like this and am keen to switch back to Thorne or another brand once finished.

Do you take a separate P5P aside from the Douglas LAbs Multi B? I take the DL Multi B but would like to supplement with a little additional p5p and have read that p5P should be enteric coated. Do you have a view on this?

Thank you

Here is what Velha said about preferred brands of carnitine. She went from being unable to work to getting a job and being totally fine in 6 or 8 months. This is from her:

I had to take 2.5 g of carnitine fumarate (patented by sigma tau) very critical to take this form TWO times a day on an empty stomach - being sensitive I could tell the difference!! Doctor's Best and Jarrow both use this patented version and are the only two brands I will use. I tried many forms (carnitine tartrate, acetyl-carnitine and many brands because this stuff costs so much so I know which work and which don't - - a vitacost bottle that supposedly contained same product also, but it DID NOT contain it or had so much less than it said it did that it was a total waste of money! It's a shame these things can be so variable as people may make conclusions about certain supplements when really it was the manufacturer not the particular supplement ...

I've been able to lower this to 2.5 g once per day, but just this week tried a few days off again (I"m always testing things) of it again and was all of a sudden lying around all the time with no "motivation" to do anything, I put that in quotes because it VERY much feels that way but obviously is some sort of psychological response to not having any energy, within a few hours of restarting I was running all around catching up on everything I"d let go...

 

[adreno]

Be aware that carnitine is a thyroid hormone antagonist.

 

[rydra_wong]

Hi Topaz,

It's worse than that. I've talked to people that gave Jarrow bad reviews for causing a lot of startup effects and good reviews for the brands that did nothing instead of lots of things.

fyi ubiquinol is the active form of CoQ10. I was taking 100mg of ubiquinone for 20 years and when I tested I was low. Now I find that it takes BH4 to make ubiquinol, and I have 3 genes that keep me from making sufficient BH4. So I take ubiquinol. I cannot say if I take enough because I did not retest. I just know 100mg ubiquinone was not enough.

I take an extra 50mg P5P from country life. idk about enteric coating...but it is a tablet so maybe it is. P5P protects your kidneys from glycation due to blood sugar, as does benfotiamine. So I am interested in it for other reasons not just the methyl cycle. It is the only drain for homocysteine. I tested once and takine 200mg P5P does not lower my homocysteine more than 50mg does. idk if that would be true for you - I make sure to supplement each methylation pathway (including TMG/BHMT path) so that may be quicker than the P5P path, which may be why extra P5P doesn;t pull down my methylation beyond where it should. That's the way it works with me -- it's all I can say. (If I am having a problem with high blood pressure, I DO take extra P5P and extra TMG just in case my homocysteine is elevated...as I cannot measure it daily, I just ensure that's not contributing to my bp. But otherwise, I take 50mg P5p and 1g TMG and 800mcg mfolate and 2x/day Thorne Basic B...I dont need the mB12 nor the aB12...my digestion is not bad enough that the B complex isn't enough...I say this based on homocysteine and uMMA tests, plus no effect from taking more).

Rydra