tip for anyone doing chelation and having a hard time

[Catseye]

In the beginning, I was having a hard time with the magnesium edta IVs, getting really harsh liver symptoms from the detoxing. It stopped as soon as I started using this special "cocktail" one of my doctors suggested: one tablespoon of fresh lemon juice (fresh is extremely important, he emphasized), one tablespoon of ACV (apple cider vinegar, a good one, not the Heinz crap variety) and one tablespoon of EVOO (extra virgin olive oil). I did this twice a day on an empty stomach while I was chelating. I did the cocktail every day, not just on chelation days, and I did the IVs twice a week for 2 months. It cleared up my liver symptoms right away and I was able to tolerate the highest dose of edta with no problems. It actually tastes pretty good, but it burns the throat a bit so you'll want a chaser after you down it, I was using apple juice.

I'll be doing more chelation soon and I still do the cocktails now and then, regardless - they are quite addicting and seem to be keeping my liver in good shape. :victory:

Also, make sure you drink plenty of water, especially before, after and during chelation. It really makes a difference in how you feel and eases the strain on the poor liver and kidneys. I bring a one liter bottle of water with me and drink it while I sit there for 3 hours.

 

[harrycat]

This is interesting thanks its good to know strategies when the detox leaves you feeling rubbish. I wonder what are 'liver symptoms' as I've heard people talk of this before and never known what it is exactly? Thankyou.

 

[Catseye]

Liver symptoms are probably a bit different for everyone. And they can be kind of vague. I just know from experience what it feels like when my liver is pissed off. Overall "yuckiness" that goes along with being tired, a feeling of anywhere from mild to heavy tightness in the chest, pain on the right side that resembles the same pain we used to get as children when we ran too fast and too hard and then fell on the ground doubled over with that "ache" from running, to name a few off the top of my head. I've had them so bad that I've felt like I was literally dying on the spot and could only writhe around in agony, but it's been a very long time since mine were that bad. Eating fat or protein without enough stomach acid will congest a liver and cause some symptoms, too. I also use a lot of liver cleanse pills and even Chinese bitters now and then. Chinese bitters is gentian root mixed with bupleurum root. It tastes like hell but works very well when your liver is in need of some assistance. I had hep c a long time ago and did the chemo to get rid of it (big mistake but it worked) and I was left with some mild damage so when I detox I tend to feel it a little more than most.

I use tinctures for the bitters, one dropperful of gentian and one dropperful of bupleurum. YUK!

But later, my liver goes . . . ahhhhh.

 

[Catseye]

Well, I'm doing chelation twice a week now. I go there and sit for 3 hourst at a time. It goes fast with a book and an iPad. I am taking an awful lot of supplements to help it along so my symptoms aren't overwhelming. I am using a doctor who is board certified and has been doing this for over 20 years. I'm never the only one there, a lot of older people are doing chelation to unclog their arteries.

 

[Catseye]

Got my latest metals test back. I'm high in lead, gadolinium and cadmium. Mercury and thallium aren't exactly low, either. According to my new expert doc, though, the mercury won't score high unless you provoke it with a challenge test after you've gotten the lead out of the way. I'm told the mag edta we're using has a much higher affinity for the lead and cadmium than it does the mercury so it won't even really start grabbing the mercury until the higher affinity metals are lowered. So I won't even really know how high my mercury levels are for a while. We retest after 15 sessions. So far so good, so I'll keep on.

I just met a lady there yesterday who scored even higher than me on her metals test; she's there for CFS, too. I feel weird after a session, and especially yucky about 12 hours later, but liver cleanse pills work in a few minutes so it's quite tolerable. Wow, it's quicker to earn a college degree than it is to kick this stupid disease's ass. :Sign giggle: (easier, too)

 

[baccarat]

If I were you I'd seek a second opinion...
EDTA does not chelate mercury. The best chelator for lead is DMSA but you need to be careful how you use it because it also chelates mercury.
There is some good info here that can help you assess if what you're been told about metals chelation makes sense or not.

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/

 

[Catseye]

Hi baccarat,

Have you done any chelation? I pretty much get second opinions on everything, I've done extensive reading about chelation. I have Andy Cutler's Amalgam Illness book and I've read through countless pages online about it. He is into oral chelation which I'm not doing right now. He says that edta is not generally helpful for chronic fatigue and other mercury related symptom complexes but I have had steady improvement from doing it. I've even been able to stop using one hormone after 5 years of continuous use (desmopressin) and I'm slowly weaning off another (hydrocortisone). Edta does bind to mercury, but very weakly. In my post, I was just talking about the test and why it won't show a high mercury load with the edta provocation. I'll be using other chelators later. I actually already had that link you provided in my bookmarks folder but thanks for the post. It's because of Andy and all his writings that I am convinced I have mercury and other metal issues, too.

I have read an awful lot of conflicting info about chelation from different docs, btw. Many of them disagree on everything about chelation - how the different drugs work, their effectiveness, the reliability of tests, etc. One point of disagreement is if edta does or does not bind to mercury and remove it from the body. Some docs have said that it does but that it leaves in the feces rather than the urine and they have found it in tests. Another point of contention is about which metals should be removed first. Andy says get rid of the mercury before you worry about the lead. But all heavy metals interfere greatly with different enzyme systems, including the ones used to excrete poisons from the body, so either one removed is going to help with the removal of the other one. I did use some oral DMPS with the edta I did last summer. But the edta formula was not the same one I'm using now and I'm getting better results at present. My doc says he has seen people recover from CFS by following his chelation instructions. Andy says not to use edta at all, but I'm getting better, not worse, so I'll keep on. It's not just edta in that IV, there's also several grams of vitamin C and some other substances that make me feel good.

I think chelation is very complex with a lot of unknowns and that's why there are so many different views on how each chelator works and their effectiveness; a lot of what you do is going to depend on your own body. I have some serious liver issues, for example, and that's going to affect which chelator I use and how much I can stand. We're all on our own to figure out our own individual protocols, I'm just passing on what's up with me.

 

[baccarat]

Hi Catsyey,

No I havent' done any because as you say there's so much conflicting info around and I don't seem to trust anybody. At present I'm basically only doing methylation which hopefully should support detoxing and I'm looking into treatments for parasites which I'd like to try.
I thought about doing chelation as I had a few amalgams. However, I just don't want to try something and find myself in a worst place as I cannot afford it right now. I have just read around about various approaches including Andy Cutler's and I have formed the impression that it's like a minefield. On top of that a friend of mine, who tried various chelation programs including edta, ended up developing severe MCS symptoms from which he can't find a way out and which really scared the hell out of me.
Having said that I'm glad it is working for you, so keep us posted.

PS: I'm curious, what formula have you been using? Are you following any specific liver support program?

 

[Catseye]

Hi baccarat,

that caught my attention when you said your friend developed severe MCS symptoms - the lady I met the other day with CFS who is doing the edta chelation mentioned that she has a bad case of MCS. She says she's so sensitive to everything that she can't even go out in the sun without getting a rash. I guess I'll find out tomorrow how she fared after her first session on Monday with me. I told her about the cocktail, of course, because she mentioned she was afraid of what may happen and asked if I knew of a way to help ease any bad effects that may develop. I think she said she was going for twice a week, maybe I'll have to wait 'til Monday before I see her again. Anyway, I'll mention this board to see if she feels like reporting her own experience or maybe I'll end up posting brief summaries of her progress.

I don't remember everything in it, I remember it's magnesium edta and also has lidocaine, B6, B12, C . . . I'm hurting my brain trying to remember, I'll get the whole formula and amounts tomorrow. A minefield is a good way of putting it. When I set out to do it, I read all I could. Basically you pick a drug, grow a pair, do it, and see what happens while you hope for the best. I guess I'm pretty lucky, just some nasty liver symptoms at first but they were manageable with the cocktail and supplements.

I use Bupleurum Liver Cleanse by Planetary Herbals, and Milk thistle Liver Cleanse by Nature's Secret. Sometimes I'll use the Chinese Bitters, bupleurum root with gentian root. After very slow trial and error over the years, I've come to learn to treat my own liver. I use lots of digestive enzymes and NAC. I expect to get off my enormous supplement program as enzyme systems are relieved of their stressors as the metals leave my body.

I use digestive enzymes and betaine hcl whenever I eat fat or protein to ease the burden on the liver. Undigested food will hit a liver pretty hard.

I started out with severe dysbiosis. As I cleaned up my diet and killed off the bugs with oil of oregano, I took tons of supplements to support digestion and the liver and methylation was restored, eventually. I had tried the SMP, but dysbiosis prevented my liver from working properly. I got some energy from the folate way back then, but I never had dramatic results until the methylation cycle was "on" again. I remember it clearly. It was a 2 week period where my energy levels and good feeling increased enormously. It took a really long time between when I embarked on a very aggressive diet and supplement plan to fix the dysbiosis and when the methylation cycle restarted. I don't really remember offhand, but I believe it was over a year. Dysbiosis has to be fixed first because it is overloading the liver with toxins, yeast and bacteria. I do remember it's been 4 1/2 years since I started that aggressive program.

 

[endomeister]

Catsyey: There seems to be some concerns about magensium-EDTA. See this link: www.smart-publications.com/articles/oral-chelation-magnesium-edta-versus-calcium-edta/

I am curious to know why your doctor has chosen this form of chelation specifically. Can you give us the details about this?

 

[markmc20001]

Thanks for that link endomeister. I took some of that EDTA almost two years ago, and I have been crashed since. I wonder if I took the wrong stuff?

I was taking ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid. Also took some of the disodium EDTA. It says on wiki that

" Its usefulness arises because of its role as a hexadentate ("six-toothed") ligand and chelating agent, i.e. its ability to "sequester" metal ions such as Ca2+ and Fe3+"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylenediaminetetraacetic_acid

I think this is the ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid I was taking.

Magnesium EDTA removes essential calcium from cells
On the other hand, weak chelates like magnesium have a high affinity for calcium, and this can remove too much calcium too quickly from cells and damage or kill them. This is a problem of stronger not necessarily being better. Weak chelates of EDTA have a stronger affinity for calcium than calcium disodium EDTA. But this makes those weak chelates more toxic by removing ESSENTIAL calcium from cells. And we certainly don't want to remove essential calcium from cells that need it to live.

http://www.smart-publications.com/articles/oral-chelation-magnesium-edta-versus-calcium-edta/

 

[markmc20001]

chemical description of the magnesium version:

http://www.chemblink.com/products/14402-88-1.htm

what I took:

http://www.wonderlabs.com/newshowitems.php

 

[Catseye]

Hi endomeister,

I read the article at the link, thanks. Well, for one thing, he's talking about oral chelation. Even so, I don't know why that guy is freaking out so bad about magnesium edta, even saying it's in plant fertilizer, as if that is somehow horrific and absurd. It's like he doesn't have a clue what magnesium is. He should be freaking out over the fact that people would consider using oral edta chelation in the first place, because of the dangers and the fact that it is so poorly absorbed. He sounds like a possible candidate for chelation himself, either his thinking is muddled by mercury or he has a bad case of cranium in rectum, hehehe. I've never come across anything that would cause me to think magnesium edta is a bad choice.

After reading as much as I could, I picked the mag edta over the other ones before I even got to see the doctor. I didn't want the potassium edta because I figured the increase in potassium would stress the adrenals and kidneys and I have adrenal fatigue. And I liked the magnesium because we're all likely deficient in it. Oral edta is poorly absorbed and has its own set of problems. If anyone is going to use edta I would recommend IV or possibly suppository but not oral unless it's in conjunction with the IV because of poor GI function and in that case you'd better have a doc who knows his stuff.

I can ask the doc today why he uses mag over the others, I don't remember all the reasons I picked it. I guess I should have documented my reasoning as I read through all the articles but it didn't occur to me to do that. HA! story of my life with CFS, it didn't occur to me!

Anyway, I'll get back with the doc's answer tonight. I am also going to ask if I can start using some oral DMSA since I seem to be tolerating this so well. If that's more than I can stand then I can always stop but after dealing with this chaos in my body for 9 years I'm becoming impatient now that the real cure for me seems to be looming just over the horizon - think I'll try to speed it up a bit.

 

[Catseye]

Hi markmc20001,

Was that oral you took? It wouldn't pull up at the wonderlabs link.

Chelation is going to strip useful metals no matter which form or method you use. I have ended up with a buzzy feeling afterward a few times so I carry a little bottle with me that has a multi mineral, calcium, zinc and glucose pills. I've popped pills after about 3 or 4 sessions (out of 23) but I usually don't feel the tingling and so I avoid minerals that day to get the maximum benefit from the chelator.

 

[Catseye]

I should probably also mention that I've tried oral chelation about 4 or 5 different times before this year and it was a disaster every time. I always crashed and felt horrible. It was never with edta, though. I used various supplements like Mercury Magnet, Metalloclear, chlorella and a few others I can't even remember. I never felt good after. But with the IVs, after my liver stops yelling at me briefly, I'm left with increased strength and a good feeling. I think the oral chelators I used either depleted the minerals too much and/or they pounded my poor liver beyond what it could handle. It was only when I did the DMPS orally this summer that I didn't end up with more than I could handle. And I was following Andy's recommendations - 100 mg DMPS every 8 hours, with 100 mg ALA every 4 hours, 4 days on, 3 days off.

I was going to this other chelation clinic over the summer that catered mostly to older people with heart issues, who needed the plaque removed from their veins; the doc wasn't an expert in metals like at the clinic I'm going to now. I just couldn't get an appt with the doc for like 2 months and I was anxious to get started. I don't think their formulas are the same, even though they are both using mag edta. I seem to be getting better results from each session here at the new place.

 

[markmc20001]

Heya catseye. I was tried diffent types. My problem was lead.

1) Wonder Laboratories EDTA 625 MG.

2) Interfase Plus (it has enzymes and stuff also for biofilm treatments apparently.)

interesting about the IV's and glad those are working for you.

PS: I read somewhere beets are good for the liver, and I put some in fresh made juice along with lemons, apples, carrots, cabbage, or whatver.... when I make it.

I found a company that makes a product called "angstrom minerals" and have been trying to use that for getting calcium back in my system. (if calcium is my problem.) I have been tested for calicum and test ok, but who knows if the test could detect a very specific organ being deficient.

 

[Vegas]

And I was following Andy's recommendations - 100 mg DMPS every 8 hours, with 100 mg ALA every 4 hours, 4 days on, 3 days off.

This may have just been a misstatement on your part, but ALA needs to be taken every THREE hours. I start to get nausea, dizziness, and headaches at about 4-4.5 hours after a dose--when discontinuing an ALA round. By this point the blood levels have fallen too much. If you go back to oral chelation, stick to more frequent dosing intervals. Glad to hear about your success with EDTA.

 

[Catseye]

Heya catseye. I was tried diffent types. My problem was lead.

1) Wonder Laboratories EDTA 625 MG.

2) Interfase Plus (it has enzymes and stuff also for biofilm treatments apparently.)

interesting about the IV's and glad those are working for you.

PS: I read somewhere beets are good for the liver, and I put some in fresh made juice along with lemons, apples, carrots, cabbage, or whatver.... when I make it.

I found a company that makes a product called "angstrom minerals" and have been trying to use that for getting calcium back in my system. (if calcium is my problem.) I have been tested for calicum and test ok, but who knows if the test could detect a very specific organ being deficient.

I've been worried about biofilms, too. I will be adding some oil of oregano to my supplement regimen to guard against what might be coming out as the biofilms are destroyed.

Beets are good for the liver, but I can't stand them. I used to juice a lot but it was just too yucky unless you dump a bunch of fruit or sugary stuff in with the veggies and then it just becomes yeast food. If you use a lot of beet watch out for pink and purple waste coming out of you making you think you're bleeding to death! I freaked the first time I juiced a beet because of that. Make sure you don't have high yeast and bad bacteria in your gut before you juice high sugar items like apples, beets and carrots or you may make things worse. Have you done a CDSA test recently?

 

[Catseye]

This may have just been a misstatement on your part, but ALA needs to be taken every THREE hours. I start to get nausea, dizziness, and headaches at about 4-4.5 hours after a dose--when discontinuing an ALA round. By this point the blood levels have fallen too much. If you go back to oral chelation, stick to more frequent dosing intervals. Glad to hear about your success with EDTA.

No, not a misstatement. It says here in Andy's book to take lipoic acid every 3-4 hours. I didn't notice any difference between 3 or 4 hours, so I did 4 because it was easier and would then coincide with the DMPS. But I don't think it was the right time for DMPS for me. I'm going with the new doc's recommendations from now on. It's already working and I don't feel bad.

I thank you for telling me this, though. I'll keep it in mind for when I start the DMSA because I'll probably be adding the ALA, so I'll make sure to try 3 hours.

 

[Catseye]

I didn't get to ask the doc all my questions yesterday, they were swamped. I have to wait until we do more IVs before I start the DMSA and start crossing the BBB. He wants most of the lead out before we do that.

Monday was the first day for the other lady that has CFS and is doing chelation. I asked her if she wanted to get on here and talk about it but she says she already has her hands full. For the first dose of edta, they start you small to make sure there are no bad reactions. Over the next few sessions they increase the dose to the maximum. So it will be a few more sessions before she's at the full dose.