Virology Blog: Ian Lipkin on XMRV

[LJS]

http://www.virology.ws/2011/05/06/ian-lipkin-on-xmrv/

Dear Vince-

We have a plethora of explanations for how CFS/XMRV/MLV studies could go awry. However, we dont have evidence that they have. Absent an appropriately powered study representing blinded analyses by Mikovitz and Lo/Alter of samples from well characterized subjects using their reagents, protocols and people, all we have is more confusion.

I remain agnostic. We wont have answers until the end of 2011.

The NIH will post something on our study today.

Ian

 

[pamb]

God Bless Ian Lipkin for speaking up so clearly in support of letting the science continue until it is completed - or at least until there is more clarity and a clear path to follow with large scale studies.

 

[Waverunner]

Does anyone know who this Gob987 guy is? He seems to do anything in order to get make PWCs look like hysterical fanatics.

 

[eric_s]

I think i know who he is

 

[Jemal]

Do we know what message is going to be posted on the NIH website? Can't find anything yet.

 

[shannah]

Well this has turned into a bit of a saga. After posting Lipkin's message (as above), later Vince writes:


"Dr. Lipkin is not saying that the Singh study is 'worthless' - he is merely stating that no number of studies will convince non-scientists that the Mikovits study was incorrect. He is saying that it is up to Mikovits and Alter to repeat their studies in an appropriately powered manner to resolve the issue. I'm not sure that will happen. As I've said before, the Singh study is extremely well done in all ways. For scientists, there is no confusion about the findings. "

After a ton of responses to those remarks, he then writes:

"In my comment, I was not speculating on what I 'thought' Dr. Lipkin meant by his comments. I spoke with him after he sent the email to make it clear what he meant, and I based my comment here on that conversation. Whatever you choose to believe, the study that he is coordinating is exactly the kind of study that he believes will resolve the situation. Note that he says that the results won't be available until the end of 2011."

So looks like the confusion was just compounded.

 

[liquid sky]

Vince's comment is quite different than Lipkin's. Then he claims private knowledge of Lipkin's viewpoints, which just happen to agree with his viewpoint. I hate when that happens.

 

[shannah]

Agree LS - just when you think you get some clarification .....

 

[justinreilly]

Well this has turned into a bit of a saga. After posting Lipkin's message (as above), later Vince writes:


"Dr. Lipkin is not saying that the Singh study is 'worthless' - he is merely stating that no number of studies will convince non-scientists that the Mikovits study was incorrect. He is saying that it is up to Mikovits and Alter to repeat their studies in an appropriately powered manner to resolve the issue. I'm not sure that will happen. As I've said before, the Singh study is extremely well done in all ways. For scientists, there is no confusion about the findings. "

After a ton of responses to those remarks, he then writes:

"In my comment, I was not speculating on what I 'thought' Dr. Lipkin meant by his comments. I spoke with him after he sent the email to make it clear what he meant, and I based my comment here on that conversation. Whatever you choose to believe, the study that he is coordinating is exactly the kind of study that he believes will resolve the situation. Note that he says that the results won't be available until the end of 2011."

So looks like the confusion was just compounded.

haha! Right! First Lipkin says the Singh study (and the others) just created more confusion, then Prof. R. claims Lipkin said there is no 'confusion' for scientists, implying that the Singh study shows Mikovits in incorrect to scientists. But that non-scientists will never understand that until an appropriately powered study is done, which will probably never happen, then he supposedly says his own study is exactly such a study, results expected end of 2011.

I submit that (1) there is in fact confusion, not only among the confused non-scientists like me, but also among some scientists and (2) some scientists are not as agnostic as they claim in writing. : )

 

[Cort]

Well this has turned into a bit of a saga. After posting Lipkin's message (as above), later Vince writes:


"Dr. Lipkin is not saying that the Singh study is 'worthless' - he is merely stating that no number of studies will convince non-scientists that the Mikovits study was incorrect. He is saying that it is up to Mikovits and Alter to repeat their studies in an appropriately powered manner to resolve the issue. I'm not sure that will happen. As I've said before, the Singh study is extremely well done in all ways. For scientists, there is no confusion about the findings. "

After a ton of responses to those remarks, he then writes:

"In my comment, I was not speculating on what I 'thought' Dr. Lipkin meant by his comments. I spoke with him after he sent the email to make it clear what he meant, and I based my comment here on that conversation. Whatever you choose to believe, the study that he is coordinating is exactly the kind of study that he believes will resolve the situation. Note that he says that the results won't be available until the end of 2011."

So looks like the confusion was just compounded.

You're right. Racaniello probably should have left well enough alone. In any case he definitely altered the tenor of Dr. Lipkin's remarks.

 

[Cort]

haha! Right! First Lipkin says the Singh study (and the others) just created more confusion, then Prof. R. claims Lipkin said there is no 'confusion' for scientists, implying that the Singh study shows Mikovits in incorrect to scientists. But that non-scientists will never understand that until an appropriately powered study is done, which will probably never happen, then he supposedly says his own study is exactly such a study, results expected end of 2011.

I submit that (1) there is in fact confusion, not only among the confused non-scientists like me, but also among some scientists and (2) some scientists are not as agnostic as they claim in writing. : )

Point 2 is well taken. I imagine that if Lipkin knows of Racaniello's comments - he's not happy. I wouldn't be.

 

[Cort]

Everyone knows your an associate of Cort and he has a financial interests that do not include patients getting treatment if XMRV ends up being the cause.

Justin can you please explain why you think this is true. What do you base this on? What in the world are you talking about? (You 'liked' this post).

 

[Mya Symons]

"he is merely stating that no number of studies will convince non-scientists that the Mikovits study was incorrect."--I am worried about this statement here. If it is true, and Lipkin did say this, it almost sounds like he has already made up his mind before his study has even been conducted. I hope that is not true. I hope he starts out nonbiased and impartial and professional.

 

[heapsreal]

wasnt WPI going to do a cytokine type study on xmrv positives, u would think this would help their cause. U cant have contamination of your own immune system?????

 

[insearchof]

Well this has turned into a bit of a saga. After posting Lipkin's message (as above), later Vince writes:


"Dr. Lipkin is not saying that the Singh study is 'worthless' - he is merely stating that no number of studies will convince non-scientists that the Mikovits study was incorrect. He is saying that it is up to Mikovits and Alter to repeat their studies in an appropriately powered manner to resolve the issue. I'm not sure that will happen. As I've said before, the Singh study is extremely well done in all ways. For scientists, there is no confusion about the findings. "

After a ton of responses to those remarks, he then writes:

"In my comment, I was not speculating on what I 'thought' Dr. Lipkin meant by his comments. I spoke with him after he sent the email to make it clear what he meant, and I based my comment here on that conversation. Whatever you choose to believe, the study that he is coordinating is exactly the kind of study that he believes will resolve the situation. Note that he says that the results won't be available until the end of 2011."

So looks like the confusion was just compounded.

How many times have we heard this from self promoting scientists, who's non replicative studies have not resolved the situation?

I wont be holding my breath for the outcome of that study.

 

[heapsreal]

All of us with cfs know its not depression or some other psychological problem, we know its some sort of immune or infectious problem. I dont give 2 hoots if they say xmrv isnt the cause but as long as they can tell us what is the cause. Im sick of hearing what its not, what the hell is it then??????????????

 

[insearchof]

All of us with cfs know its not depression or some other psychological problem, we know its some sort of immune or infectious problem. I dont give 2 hoots if they say xmrv isnt the cause but as long as they can tell us what is the cause. Im sick of hearing what its not, what the hell is it then??????????????

You know -if XMRV does not turn out, I think IF the answer is found, it will be a very long time after I am well and truly dead and buried.

If the finding of a significant retrovirus in CFS patients - associated to cancers, did not result in significiant grant funding to the WPI - then really they dont give a hoot about people with ME CFS and that, my friend is the bottom line.

Squatt funding for 25 years and squatt funding now.

If they cared enough - they would have given the WPI the necessary funding they needed to do what they need to do. But they have not and now, as we approach 2 years of their finding that inspired others to go looking for it - albeit using their own novel processes - it seems less likely that they will support WPI in the way they should have.

Criminal.

That show of support, may have tempered somewhat, the hostile political scientific environment that arose.

If anything, this sobering little fact - should speak volumes to the patient community and they should go after the governments with greater effort, than ever before.

The governments are responsible for the long term sufferings and deaths. Its time they accounted for them.

 

[Jemal]

Still nothing on the NIH website though about the Lipkin study? Lipkin hinted that something would be posted.

 

[Waverunner]

All of us with cfs know its not depression or some other psychological problem, we know its some sort of immune or infectious problem. I dont give 2 hoots if they say xmrv isnt the cause but as long as they can tell us what is the cause. Im sick of hearing what its not, what the hell is it then??????????????

I agree. If CFS would receive only a quarter of HIV funding although it probably affects much more people, I bet that we already would have working treatments.

Edit: And you know what I find really scary? The only doctors/people who care about CFS in a scientific way (so no quaks and psychologists) are people who got involved with CFS because they or a family member got ill. And this shows the catastrophe we find ourselves into now. Just imagine that cancer research would only be conducted by doctors who have cancer themselves. Many more people would be dead and the progress would be much lower.