It's all in the Gut. Why we get ME/CFS

[DANEL]

hi,
i am new and posted my story "HOPING TO HEAL" my gut issues are huge. i have mold and mercury illness. having done a stool test, found, bacteria, fungus/yeast, 2 parasites blastocysts hominus, my inflammatory markers very high, etc. was wondering if there is an opinion on Marshall Protocol, in using pulse low dose axb and no vit d and 2 other inflammatory drugs to kill the intercellular bacteria, if i kinda have that right. i have tried everything to help my gut problems , food elimination, supplements, etc and even chelation of heavy metals, but until i address the bacteria it may be pointless.

on the fdc group for mercury, many autistic children that are chelating mercury, also do virus pulls. there is a lyme book, i will get the name, that helps with natural ways to address the bugs of lyme and addresses the supplements to pull out virus. many have had huge success.

i am stuck, i had planned on doing the parasite cleanse for the blasto, freddd protocol for methylation, go back to all the supplements, herbs, tinctutes for mold, do a virus pull, and chelate the mercury. also address things like KUP.

I know i am very toxic and having a hard time detoxing, but the bacteria causes me to feel so sick, bedridden, hot fevers, fugus infections, just a weak flu like bac, virus sickness everyday.

wonder about the MP, it makes sense to address the bacteria in the room.

denise

 

[globalpilot]

Hi Denise,
I read your story in Hoping to Heal thread and I really feel for you, you are really suffering.

Is it the use of enzymes that the people on FDC are using for viruses ?

GP

hi,
i am new and posted my story "HOPING TO HEAL" my gut issues are huge. i have mold and mercury illness. having done a stool test, found, bacteria, fungus/yeast, 2 parasites blastocysts hominus, my inflammatory markers very high, etc. was wondering if there is an opinion on Marshall Protocol, in using pulse low dose axb and no vit d and 2 other inflammatory drugs to kill the intercellular bacteria, if i kinda have that right. i have tried everything to help my gut problems , food elimination, supplements, etc and even chelation of heavy metals, but until i address the bacteria it may be pointless.

on the fdc group for mercury, many autistic children that are chelating mercury, also do virus pulls. there is a lyme book, i will get the name, that helps with natural ways to address the bugs of lyme and addresses the supplements to pull out virus. many have had huge success.

i am stuck, i had planned on doing the parasite cleanse for the blasto, freddd protocol for methylation, go back to all the supplements, herbs, tinctutes for mold, do a virus pull, and chelate the mercury. also address things like KUP.

I know i am very toxic and having a hard time detoxing, but the bacteria causes me to feel so sick, bedridden, hot fevers, fugus infections, just a weak flu like bac, virus sickness everyday.

wonder about the MP, it makes sense to address the bacteria in the room.

denise

 

[DANEL]

hi globalpilot,

yes, i don't have it all down b/c i am not there yet, but most children are put on very high doses of vit a for a few days and the use of enzymes like Vitastop and others are used, along with cats claw, sasparilla, and others are used. it is usually done for several months to pull the virus. if i can find all the paper work i have saved on this i will post it here if you are interested.

i am very sick, do you know anything about the Marshall protocol? i could post a link. i need help and support and opinions from others, as to what to do to get better.

thanks

denise

 

[globalpilot]

Hello,
I wish I could help you with the Marshall protocal but I've never studied it. Did you join the Marshall forum ? that might help.

Thanks for the info on the virus protocal. Don't worry about pulling out the info for my sake, I can read about it on the autism forums.

GP

hi globalpilot,

yes, i don't have it all down b/c i am not there yet, but most children are put on very high doses of vit a for a few days and the use of enzymes like Vitastop and others are used, along with cats claw, sasparilla, and others are used. it is usually done for several months to pull the virus. if i can find all the paper work i have saved on this i will post it here if you are interested.

i am very sick, do you know anything about the Marshall protocol? i could post a link. i need help and support and opinions from others, as to what to do to get better.

thanks

denise

 

[redo]

This study is really fascinating (my bolds in the text below).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17720995

HIV disease progression: immune activation, microbes, and a leaky gut.
By Douek D.
Source, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the NIH, Bethesda, MD, USA.

Recent findings indicate that the majority of all CD4+ T lymphocytes are lost during acute HIV infection, with mucosal compartments being most severely affected. The frequency of infection is very high in gut CD4+ T cells, and depletion of these cells persists into the chronic phase of infection. Infection is associated with increased gut permeability, with microbial translocation being evidenced by increased circulating lipopolysaccharide (LPS) levels. Plasma LPS levels correlate with systemic immune activation, which drives chronic HIV infection. Antiretroviral therapy reduces plasma LPS, and greater CD4+ T cell reconstitution is associated with lower LPS levels. These findings have a number of implications for therapeutic strategies. This article summarizes a presentation on HIV disease progression made by Daniel Douek, MD, PhD, at an International AIDS Society-USA Continuing Medical Education course in San Francisco in May 2007. The original presentation is available as a Webcast at www.iasusa.org.


If a retrovirus is central in CFS, than I really think this is the main way it works. It works on the gut, and that in turn messes up everything else.

 

[DANEL]

This study is really fascinating (my bolds in the text below).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17720995

HIV disease progression: immune activation, microbes, and a leaky gut.
By Douek D.
Source, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the NIH, Bethesda, MD, USA.

Recent findings indicate that the majority of all CD4+ T lymphocytes are lost during acute HIV infection, with mucosal compartments being most severely affected. The frequency of infection is very high in gut CD4+ T cells, and depletion of these cells persists into the chronic phase of infection. Infection is associated with increased gut permeability, with microbial translocation being evidenced by increased circulating lipopolysaccharide (LPS) levels. Plasma LPS levels correlate with systemic immune activation, which drives chronic HIV infection. Antiretroviral therapy reduces plasma LPS, and greater CD4+ T cell reconstitution is associated with lower LPS levels. These findings have a number of implications for therapeutic strategies. This article summarizes a presentation on HIV disease progression made by Daniel Douek, MD, PhD, at an International AIDS Society-USA Continuing Medical Education course in San Francisco in May 2007. The original presentation is available as a Webcast at www.iasusa.org.


If a retrovirus is central in CFS, than I really think this is the main way it works. It works on the gut, and that in turn messes up everything else.

hi redo,

this may be a silly question and already answered here(if so where?) how does one do a antiretroviral therapy? is it the same as a virus pull, talked about on the autistic groups(mentioned above in a post to globalpilot?)

thanks
denise

 

[redo]

Please do link to that virus pull. And the other stuff. I haven't heard about that before.

What I know of today of antiretroviral treatments for CFS is that none have been a striking success. But there are rocks to be turned... I think the answer will lie there. That and restoring the gut.

 

[Gavman]

Early on you talked about stress, redo. I am aware that i got very overwhelmed at the heightened end of my chronic fatigue and saw a psychologist who helped me cope better and manage things better. My CFS got somewhat better after that. I think its often a missing element in the dealing with CFS as there is so much defence of NO ITS NOT ALL IN MY HEAD, that we have a tendency to disregard this approach entirely.

After having studied psychology, and looking at the karmic cycle in buddhism - I feel that while it may not be a cure on its own (not sure), it could speed recovery quite significantly if the right therapist was found. This may even just be to deal with the symptoms/manage the problem but uprooting old problems, eg. issues with siblings/parents can have an amazing effect on our immunity and stress response that it seems ridiculous not to follow this path at least somewhat.

 

[redo]

Well, than you have misunderstood me Gavman :Retro smile:

I really do think (and pretty much know, I guess) that the underlying mechanism behind CFS can cause psychological issues. But what I meant to say earlier was that the bodily effects of a stressful time, can shift the immune system just enough for havoc to break loose.

 

[Gavman]

No no i wasn't implying you meant that. It was more a segway.

 

[redo]

What's a segway? (except for the vehicle)

 

[Gavman]

a lead-in. Actually it was on my mind. I mean doing body work and resolving tension in people, some actually relive a past trauma that caused the issue. Or memories resurface.
The meaning of both fits: A segway does help you get from one place to another. =)

 

[leela]

off-topic orthography moment: segway the vehicle is an invented word based on the word meaning smooth transition segue,
which is pronounced like "segway", not seg-you.

 

[redo]

One thing I was really hoping for in this thread, was for someone to kick in some arguments, observations, or other things which would make this hypothesis less likely. Facts are welcome. I am not sure this is right myself, and in the look for the cause, I find such input valuable.

 

[richvank]

One thing I was really hoping for in this thread, was for someone to kick in some arguments, observations, or other things which would make this hypothesis less likely. Facts are welcome. I am not sure this is right myself, and in the look for the cause, I find such input valuable.

Hi, redo.

For what it's worth, I think that cases of ME/CFS can originate in more than one way. I agree that problems in the gut are one possible route into ME/CFS, but there are also others. Anything that leads to the depletion of glutathione in a genomically susceptible person will contribute to producing a case of ME/CFS, in my opinion. After a case of ME/CFS has developed, there is glutathione depletion, a partial block in the methylation cycle, and draining of folates from the cells. After these have occurred, if there were not already problems in the gut, they will develop from these factors as causes. Glutathione is normally needed to maintain the mitochondria of the parietal cells of the stomach, which produce stomach aci. The pancreas needs methylation to produce digestive enzymes. Glutathione is needed to remove toxins from the gut and to support the immune system there, as well as to counter oxidative stress. Folate is needed to make new DNA to replace the cells lining the gut, which have a relatively short lifetime. So the vicious circle mechanism that I believe to be at the core of the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of ME/CFS will have a variety of deleterious effects on the gut.

The gut problems will then exacerbate these vicious circle factors in several ways. For example, poor absorption of nutrients needed by this part of the metabolism will make its recovery more difficult. Dysbiosis can eliminate the friendly bacteria that normally make folates and other nutrients needed by the methylation cycle and related pathways. A leaky gut can place demands on the immune system, producing more demand on glutathione.

Because of this, I believe that the problems in the gut and the partial methylation cycle block must be treated simultaneously for best results.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[leela]

Here's a newer thread with an interesting angle, MBL deficiency. Could really play into why we switch from one immune branch to another.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...le-MBL-deficiency-and-CFS&p=198233#post198233

 

[Rrrr]

kdm suggest i need Mutaflor. does anyone know where to get Mutaflor in the USA, or the best/cheapest source for it outside the USA, if it can't be gotten in the US?? i got this from someone, but was hoping for a USA source:

 

[k-AUS]

kdm suggest i need Mutaflor. does anyone know where to get Mutaflor in the USA, or the best/cheapest source for it outside the USA, if it can't be gotten in the US?? i got this from someone, but was hoping for a USA source:

Rrrr,

I see a doc in Aust that works with KDM, currently I am taking Mutaflor. I was given the contact details of a German supplier to source these tablets:

Metropolitan Pharmacy
Flughafen, Frankfurt
Email: FRA@metropolitan-pharmacy.de
(address the email to Nicola)

Fax: +49 69 69 58 07 16

hope this is of some help

 

[redo]

Hi Rich,

Your input is appreciated. You might very well be right that they'd need to be treated at the same time for the best results.

But I wonder if you have any arguments as for why the gut couldn't be a common nominator? I am not saying that I know it is, cause I don't. But I'd appreciate it if you could think of a reason why it couldn't be.

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich,

Your input is appreciated. You might very well be right that they'd need to be treated at the same time for the best results.

But I wonder if you have any arguments as for why the gut couldn't be a common nominator? I am not saying that I know it is, cause I don't. But I'd appreciate it if you could think of a reason why it could be.

Hi, redo.

I would say that nearly all PWME's/PWC's do have gut problems. Occasionally I hear from one who doesn't seem to, and I've also heard of one or two who had gut problems and were able to get them corrected, but were still ill with fatigue, etc. But most do have these issues, so I would say that it is nearly a common denominator. Also, those who don't think they have gut problems are not motivated to run a comprehensive stool test, so there may be some gut issues in their cases as well, which they are not aware of. But if they don't have symptoms, such as gastroesophageal reflux, slow stomach emptying, bloating, excessive upper or lower gas release, abdominal pain, poor absorption of nutrients, constipation, diarrhea, or abnormalities in the appearance of their stools, then I would say that their gut is probably functioning well, and there do seem to be some in the ME/CFS community who don't have these issues. Maybe there could be a poll about this.

However it comes out, I would agree that treatment of the gut issues does need to be part of an overall treatment protocol for ME/CFS. In extreme cases, in which the gut is really not functioning much at all, the person is not able to eat much of anything, and they are losing weight, this aspect is life-threatening. These people usually need to have a picc line installed for intravenous feeding, combined with concerted effort to get the gut back in functioning condition.

Best regards,

Rich