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Anyone know of a natural selective Histamine 2 receptor blocker?

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
I'd like to block histamine 2, but avoid blocking histamine 1. when i block H1, i get heart palpitationons and rises in BP. I have tried pepcid but it gives me a stomach ache and I cannot try tagamet since supresses mao-a further. I also checked the 3rd one people talk about, but it has ingredients it can't have. I then looked into the mast cell stabalizer keto....but it also blocks histamine 1 and i believe cromylyn sodisum also blocks H1.

when i look for natural alternatives to pharma, i see a bunch on classic histamine (H1) and on mast cells (like taking quercitan) but nothing on H2.

Just feel like if i can find that, perhaps i can tolerate more foods. And that in turn will help me gain much needed weight (can't stop losing). Pehraps part of a plan to try to heal gut as one arm of this octopus beast.

Thanks.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
Can you give a link to your reference for that? Thanks.

Try the book Enteroimmunology by Charles A. Lewis.

Were you thinking about tagamet inhibiting cytochrome p 450? its not unrelatedt. Anyone with amine senstitivty should avoid tagamet.

Do you have an amine sensitivity? Can you please elaborate on what kind you have? or if you have another reason for avoiding mao-a inhibitors, please describe those. Thanks.

Also, any H2 blocker you can recommend? Thanks
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
when i block H1, i get heart palpitationons and rises in BP.

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how can you determine if the Cardiac and BP reactions are part of the histamine surge itself (from food or other triggers) vs. from the H1 blocker?

I also checked the 3rd one people talk about, but it has ingredients it can't have.

I'm not sure by "3rd one" you mean Zantac, but if so, you can get Zantac made at a compounding pharmacy without any dyes or fillers. The H2 blocker that worked best for me was Pepcid (which I know you said did not work for you) but when I used to post on the Mast Cell boards, it seemed evenly split between those who took Pepcid and those who took Zantac (as their H2 blocker).

I then looked into the mast cell stabalizer keto....but it also blocks histamine 1 and i believe cromylyn sodisum also blocks H1.

You are correct that both Ketotefin and Cromolyn (Gastrochrom) are H1 blockers in addition to mast cell stabilizers. Are your MCAS symptoms exclusively GI symptoms or do you also get H1 reactions?
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
Try the book Enteroimmunology by Charles A. Lewis.
I don't see any mention in that book that cimetidine inhibits MAO-A. I'm guessing that perhaps you saw the following study which found that cimetidine reduced the clearance of moclobemide and inadvertently thought it was saying that cimetidine inhibits MAO-A(?):

Cimetidine alters the disposition kinetics of the monoamine oxidase-A inhibitor moclobemide

I was asking about it because I'm a former medicinal chemist and cimetidine, at a low dose (50mg twice a day), is one of the very few things that has significantly helped my ME/CFS on a long term basis (in 20 years of trying different supplements and drugs).

I researched cimetidine (Tagamet) extensively a few years ago to try to determine why it was having a positive effect, because the effect is definitely not related to its histamine H2 receptor blocking ability, since neither famotidine (Pepcid) nor ranitidine (Zantac) have any positive effect for me.

My best guess, because of the low dose I'm using it at, is that cimetidine may be acting in an immunomodulatory way per this study.

Note that there is one obscure 1987 reference for which neither an abstract nor fulltext is readily available titled, “MAOI-like reaction associated with cimetidine.” I'm guessing that was actually some sort of drug-drug interaction that was found.

I haven't come across any herbal type supplements that have a selective H2 blocking ability.

Good luck.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I don't see any mention in that book that cimetidine inhibits MAO-A. I'm guessing that perhaps you saw the following study which found that cimetidine reduced the clearance of moclobemide and inadvertently thought it was saying that cimetidine inhibits MAO-A(?):

Cimetidine alters the disposition kinetics of the monoamine oxidase-A inhibitor moclobemide

I was asking about it because I'm a former medicinal chemist and cimetidine, at a low dose (50mg twice a day), is one of the very few things that has significantly helped my ME/CFS on a long term basis (in 20 years of trying different supplements and drugs).

I researched cimetidine (Tagamet) extensively a few years ago to try to determine why it was having a positive effect, because the effect is definitely not related to its histamine H2 receptor blocking ability, since neither famotidine (Pepcid) nor ranitidine (Zantac) have any positive effect for me.

My best guess, because of the low dose I'm using it at, is that cimetidine may be acting in an immunomodulatory way per this study.

Note that there is one obscure 1987 reference for which neither an abstract nor fulltext is readily available titled, “MAOI-like reaction associated with cimetidine.” I'm guessing that was actually some sort of drug-drug interaction that was found.

I haven't come across any herbal type supplements that have a selective H2 blocking ability.

Good luck.
Cimetidine supposedly has strong effect on ebv according to jay Goldstein. Did you have full remission from it?
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
Cimetidine supposedly has strong effect on ebv according to jay Goldstein. Did you have full remission from it?
No, it affords just an incremental improvement for me (e.g., from bordering on severe to a middle moderate level). Very noticeable though.

I'm actually completely negative for EBV (no exposure) using a wide variety tests that were ordered by Dr Kaufman when he was at the Open Medicine Institute.

I'm also using a much lower dose of cimetidine (50 mg twice a day, which I believe is in line with the study I cited earlier) than what's effective for anti-viral purposes.

Edit: On the other hand, I do test positive for prior exposure to cytomegalovirus (CMV).
 
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vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
I just saw these replies now. I tried to have a quick look in the book i mentioned and one thing he says in the chapter on amines is: "Hiistory of pseduoallergy should serve as a warning for the use of medications that inhibit AOC1. Similar warnings are appropriate for MAO and HNMt inhibiting medications. H2 blockers, although not strong inhibitors, are commonly used and available without a prescription". Ambifguous in this instance as to whether inhibits aoc1, mao, or hnmt. There were more extensive discussions elsewhere though, including those that singled out tagamet compared to the others- perhaps int he mast cell chapter- will look when I get a chance. When you both said that this claim was not in the book, were you referring to the table that suggests (arbuably) a different interpretation of this sentence?

Until i get a change too look in book, I was going to give the reference to another article, but looks like you have it- on mao-I like effects with cimedine. Note surew why you think it's just a drug-drug interaction (incidentally, i have not seen the drug drug paper one of the posters mention) and even if it is, raises the possiblity that cimetdine also interacts with endegenous MAO activity and not just exogeneous drugs that alter it.

There's also the work that finds that catecholamine levels in urine may be decreased with H2 blockers. I don't remember if they have a theory as to why, but decreased cat levels in urine can be due to decreased breakdown of the exisiting catecholamines, which would implicate with MAO, COMT, or the sulfer pathways. (or if it's jus tlowering the catecholamines, it still suggest h2 blockers are interacting with the whole catecholamine system).

thene there's the suspicious case study (haven't read it yet but its on the list) of someone who developed a pheochormocytoma after cessation of tagemet, suggesting again that its messing around with the whole catecholamine system

the book though was the one that was clearest on singling out tagamet vs other h2 blockers.

The poster who mentioned the antiviral effects of tagamet, I believe the theory of how this works would mean it should work for the other h2 blockers a s well. if memory serves (yes, by all means fact check), T supressor cells have receptors for H2. by blocking H2, the T supressor cells don't turn on so fast, and this allows viruses to be killed more effectively by immune system. the studies on the anti viral effect (not just EBV) were done with tagamet, but i think that's becasue they were done when that was the most popular (only?) drug in use. If all the h2 blockers have the antiviral activity, then won't hope the responder looking for what's special about tagamet. (though of course practice not same as theory; perhaps it works better in practice, and i've never had occasionto search for tagamet vs pepicd etc on anti-viral activity.

i'll look again - i'm coming from the perspective that i'm wildly sensitive with severe symptoms to even extremely small amounts of tyramines and in my case, i suspect at least some of the issue is poor supply of MAO-A (though not my only cause). So i might be biased when i see someone says stay away from tagamet (but the others ok) ifyou're senstivie to tyramines into thinking it further inhibits mao-a when wording is ambiguous.

What did you find is the difference between tagamet and the other h2 blockers when you looked into it to see why that one may have worked for you but not the others? What happens when you take a larger dose?

chemistry, especially biochem, is a good skill - will seek that poster out when questions arise :)
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
@nandixon and @debored13 Occurs to me that since I didn't list you folks by name, maybe you didn't see that I did reply to your questions and comments (on tagamet and MAO).

Whilst i'm typing, I did finally get and read the article on pheochromocytoma following cimetidine cessation. Didn't really have anything that would beneift any of us or our previous discussion. Basically was a case study of a woman whose high blood pressure was controlled by 3 meds so they assumed primary hypertension and discounted symptoms like anxiety as unrelated. She was also on tagamet long term for a couple of ulcers. Two weeks after going off tagamet she was in hypertensive crisis (systolic 250, but diastolic relatively low), nose bleeds, and very labile bp for 4 or so days. In hospital serum and urinary CATs testing came back positive and they found thru imaging she had a pheo.

the connection to tagamet is that the authors speculated that histamine causes release of catecholamines which give the symptoms; the tagamet inhibited histamine so when withdrawn, the rebound allowed lots of histamine to release lots of the catecholamines. (their other hypotheis involved tagamet possible decreaseing blood flow to adrenals since it decreases blood flow to the liver). Not very compelling.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
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4,494
Location
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the connection to tagamet is that the authors speculated that histamine causes release of catecholamines which give the symptoms; the tagamet inhibited histamine so when withdrawn, the rebound allowed lots of histamine to release lots of the catecholamines.

Do you think Zantac (Ranitidine) would have caused that same rebound effect as the cimitidine?
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
Do you think Zantac (Ranitidine) would have caused that same rebound effect as the cimitidine?

In principle, anything that blocks histamine for a while has the potential to lead to rebound when withdrawn. But i know there are individual differences in amount of rebound so perhaps theres also differences in amount of rebound to types of h2 blockers too?

So basically i dont know but my guess would be yes its going to do the same rebound.- unless someone has some reason for suggesting to should be different.

Since the thread is old, i cant remember what might hinge on this.