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DIET (or supplements) or both?

I am really, really curious on this one. I have been reading many of the treatment regimes with great interest. Many of them are both complicated & way over my head.

I admire so many of you, in your understanding of these deficiencies & bodily dysfunction attributed to ME/CFS and FM.

Could I ask if any of you have an understanding of Food & Diet as Medicine (which is my special interest, even though I trained many years ago in Aromatherapy & Lymphatic drainage massage, and a basic Certificate in Herbology. I was always going to study Nutrition when i came back to office work 17 years ago, but I just couldn't afford it on my low salary.

How many of you are studying or changing your diet?

Victoria

Comments

I'm very interested in dietary changes (after reading items in this forum). I cut down (almost out) grains and was rewarded with no more nightsweats. I should probably cut out soy as well. I just met someone from Dr. Rea's office who cut out many many foods and took his antigens and improved tremendously. I think diet/desensitization procedures are really underdone in this disease.
 
Hi Victoria

This time round I am going for diet - raw vegetable juice for the enzymes and cutting out supplements apart from b vitamins though I may let them go as well. I think that the healing process of the body will work best when it has not a whole pile of unatural substances to cope with. I am not sure about the B12 the jury is still out on that but i suspect I will stop it too and go to my original plan to see what happens. That is not to say that supplements will not be added in the future if my body wants them but to get into healing mode I think it should be simple and pure and sensitivities taken into account - I do this through kinesiology but that seems to be a bit way out for this board :)

Brenda
 
Hey Brenda - I hope you do a post about kinesiology; I think its really interesting - I like the idea of doing muscle testing to assess the effectiveness of supplements. I think Mike's doctor does some of that.
 
brenda;bt136 said:
Hi Victoria

This time round I am going for diet - raw vegetable juice for the enzymes and cutting out supplements apart from b vitamins though I may let them go as well. I think that the healing process of the body will work best when it has not a whole pile of unatural substances to cope with. I am not sure about the B12 the jury is still out on that but i suspect I will stop it too and go to my original plan to see what happens. That is not to say that supplements will not be added in the future if my body wants them but to get into healing mode I think it should be simple and pure and sensitivities taken into account - I do this through kinesiology but that seems to be a bit way out for this board :)

Brenda
Brenda,
pleased to hear someone is looking at their diet. I would have to say that improving my diet (which was already very good) has made an enormous difference to my FM symptoms & health problems. I still use supplements, but I use them supplementary to my diet ie in addition not as a replacement for foods. As I'm dairy intolerant, obviously I've taken a good calcium supplement from day 1 of stopping dairy (which I never much liked anyway - fresh milk always got stuck in my throat & made me feel a bit nauseous).

I used to juice fresh, organic vegies every day a couple of years ago, but can no longer afford the vast quantities of raw vegies & more importantly can't carry them on the bus. If you're going to juice vegies every day, try to get organic if you can afford & have access to them. Juicing really intensifies the nutritional value (but leaves out the fibre), but it also intensifies the load of chemicals & fertilizers etc.

A couple of big glasses of fresh carrot, celery, apple & cucumber was always my favourite.

My Dr was blown away by how much I had reduced my cholesterol, increased my potassium & decreased my blood sugar in just 2 months. He has also put 3 of his family members on a wheat free diet (after I'd told him of the dramatic reduction in symptoms when I cut out bread, pasta etc)

I guess you could say I'm an extremely good example of how food can help your symptoms.

But if no one on the forum seems especially interested, I guess there is no point in me putting together some articles on the subject.

Unfortunately, I am still not good at navigating the forum. I tend to look up the current posts when I arrive at work & log on to the internet, but don't have the time to look at past posts or what you have all being discussing in the 24 hours since I last logged on. And not being connected on the internet at home means I miss all the weekend posts.

From 1980 to 2000+ my chiropractor used kinesiology at the start of every treatment to check for weaknesses. Kinesiology is a most surprising & clever tool (in the right hands).

I was always amazed at how my chiropractor (long retired now) interpreted his testing & made adjustments to my spine & various other parts of my body which released tension & pain. He was miraculous in his treatment of nausea & headaches.

But back to diet...

If there's enough interest, I'll type up my personal current diet & call on some volunteers to test it out. Of course it takes my age, lifestyle, allergies & food sensitivities into account - not suitable for everyone.

After all there is no right diet for every one all the time. There is only the right diet for you at this particular time in your life.

Victoria
 
Cort;bt134 said:
I'm very interested in dietary changes (after reading items in this forum). I cut down (almost out) grains and was rewarded with no more nightsweats. I should probably cut out soy as well. I just met someone from Dr. Rea's office who cut out many many foods and took his antigens and improved tremendously. I think diet/desensitization procedures are really underdone in this disease.
Cort,
after drinking soy milk & eating tofu for many, many years, I read some interesting articles on how soy caused weakness, dizzyness or balance problems in some individuals. Also about the production of soy in the US which left a lot to be desired.

I changed to rice milk about 3 months ago for my breakfast and I'm not 100% sure, but I think I feel better! Of course, the difference is not enough to be conclusive. But I quite like the taste and the lightness of it, anyway.

I checked the ingredients & nutritional value on several cartons before I chose my current rice milk. For the time being, I am really enjoying it. You mentioned having a problem with rice. Shop around, you might find a rice milk which is agreeable (or almond or any other alternative). Being on the long life shelf in the supermarket or health food shop also means you don't need to refrigerate until it's opened.

Victoria:)
 
Cort

Yes I aim to do a post on kinesiology

Victoria

I am thinking of putting up my thoughts on healing which first of all addresses diet which I feel is the most important thing especially raw juice. I read somewhere that pesticides are not getting into the cells of the produce so that they are left behind in the pulp but I am using organic as the quality of the cell contents will be higher. If you have one of the better juicers, the yield will be greater so less to carry home! It all amounts to the amount of enzymes left behind with regards to healing. Carrots and apples are not great in a healing programme as they are too high in sugars. The most important ingredients are green vegetables especially wheat grass. I muscle test everything now as my sensitivites change daily.

Brenda
 
Victoria

I am thinking of putting up my thoughts on healing which first of all addresses diet which I feel is the most important thing especially raw juice. I read somewhere that pesticides are not getting into the cells of the produce so that they are left behind in the pulp but I am using organic as the quality of the cell contents will be higher. If you have one of the better juicers, the yield will be greater so less to carry home! It all amounts to the amount of enzymes left behind with regards to healing. Carrots and apples are not great in a healing programme as they are too high in sugars. The most important ingredients are green vegetables especially wheat grass. I muscle test everything now as my sensitivites change daily.

Brenda
[/QUOTE]

Hi Brenda,

I never actually juiced for healing.

I had juiced for over 20 years just for a healthier drink, and when I got home from my power walk each day (around 2003/4) I would do a big juice to replenish my fluids.

No power walking since Sept 2005.

I now drink filtered water (plus 3-4 organic chamomile teas per day).

And after 4 caffiene free years, I had to go back to a strong, fresh black coffee every morning to get to work & power through the pile of paper/accounts I do.

One day, I will get back to caffiene free again - probably not in this stressful job though.

I tried a chinese herbal remedy for energy & got sooooo energised, I couldn't sleep at all.

I cut down my cooked carrots when I had the high blood sugar readings in Nov 2006. And I only like the tart green Granny Smith apples. have eaten them all my life. It's the tart green apples I like, not the sweet red ones. Celery (for the sodium) & cucumber for many years (because I found them very cooling for my gall bladder inflammation - before I had my gall bladder removed a few years ago).

I was never a fan of fruit juicing - too sweet for me.

I like bitter or fresh, cool & invigorating.

Never could get parsley to juice though. Any clues on that one. Almost forgot, I also included a fairly small quarter of organic beetroot to the mix in summer (I think you call them beets in the US).

Bought a new juicer about 5 years ago - wonderful, but as I said, can't afford to buy the quantity (or more importantly can't carry the weight). There was a period from 2004-2006 when I was too exhausted after work to cook, let alone juice vegies & wash all the juicer parts.

I might get back to it one day....

Will look forward to a post on diet. Have been thinking of doing one myself, but lately heart issues are taking up my mental energy. After 8-9 hours in the office in front of a computer, have been trying NOT to do so much typing at home. My eyes since I got the home computer 3 or so weeks ago, are getting very red & tired (my GP noticed on the last visit & commented). When I get email & internet at home I will be rationing my computer screen time.

So saying that, it's 6.15 pm in the office & everyone went home 1 3/4 hours ago - time for me to switch off & walk home.

Am very much looking forward to an article on Kinesiology from you. I had it used on me on/off for many years & would like to understand it some more. Don't know how to do it on myself. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

As I surf the internet in my lunch time & after work, I am limited in time.

Luckily, I work for a school where we have 24/7 access to the internet (which I might add is why I never bothered with a computer or internet access at home before - why pay for it when you can get it for free at work - but to stay on this Forum will mean setting up at home. I am struggling to keep up at work some days as I keep flicking over to the Forum to see what members are saying & get so engrossed that I have trouble flicking back to work).

Victoria
 
Victoria

One way to get parsley through is to add something to it as it goes down the chute.

A glass of juice will get you through better than coffee!

One of the things I like about my new juicer is that it cleans in a few seconds. It's a single auger one. I think it is important to consider that.

I have problems getting the veg home as I live on the 3rd floor and have to cycle to get my shopping in. I would like to be drinking at least a litre but have not got up to that yet.

If you have a juicer which cuts up the produce you can get a crusher to get about twice as much juice out.

Even one glass a day will help you cope.

Brenda
 
brenda;bt145 said:
Victoria

One way to get parsley through is to add something to it as it goes down the chute.

A glass of juice will get you through better than coffee!

One of the things I like about my new juicer is that it cleans in a few seconds. It's a single auger one. I think it is important to consider that.

I have problems getting the veg home as I live on the 3rd floor and have to cycle to get my shopping in. I would like to be drinking at least a litre but have not got up to that yet.

If you have a juicer which cuts up the produce you can get a crusher to get about twice as much juice out.

Even one glass a day will help you cope.

Brenda
Brenda,

Thanks for the tip about the parsley - if I ever get around to juicing daily again, I'll try to remember that.

The juicer I have was specifically bought because it took large pieces & I didn't have to chop everything up so much (my old juicer was about 25 years old).

As to the strong black coffee each morning, I can assure you I've tried everything imaginable to get a boost in the morning, but fresh, strong black coffee it is. I hope you'll appreciate the fact, that I am greatly fatigued each day & not really well enough to do a full time job, but full time work is the only option to support myself & pay the rent/bills. So I do absolutely anything to keep going. That coffee is probably the only regular really unhealthy thing in my diet (apart from a few chocolate biscuits at work).

I personally think coffee is very bad for my liver (& everyone else's liver for that matter).

Gosh, if I had to lugg shopping up 3 floors, I'd starve. One of the reasons I rented this flat is the ground floor location. With bad, sometimes severe hip pain most days, I have to side step up stairs. And there's no way I could get my full shopping trolley up stairs. But as with most people with chronic pain/fatigue, I make do the best I can.

When I wrote to you at 6.20pm last night, an earthquake hit Melbourne - never felt a thing.

It's certainly wild weather we're having in Australia these days.

Victoria
 
Victoria

Sorry to hear about your hip problems. I have borrelia in all joints now but have managed to remain mobile this past year whereas in time past I could not climb stairs - I put it all down to the miracle life I am living at the moment.

I really hope and pray for you that you will be able to avoid a crash and then you really will have no choice in the matter. Your situation sounds desperate.

Wow an earthquake! We are enjoying a late summer in Germany.

Brenda
 
brenda;bt149 said:
Victoria

Sorry to hear about your hip problems. I have borrelia in all joints now but have managed to remain mobile this past year whereas in time past I could not climb stairs - I put it all down to the miracle life I am living at the moment.

I really hope and pray for you that you will be able to avoid a crash and then you really will have no choice in the matter. Your situation sounds desperate.

Wow an earthquake! We are enjoying a late summer in Germany.

Brenda
Brenda,

thanks for the good wishes. Earthquakes in Eastern Australia are relatively miniscule except for one in the state of New South Wales some years ago.

The couple we had on Tuesday night were very noticable in some suburbs of Melbourne & down the peninsula below Melbourne. But the red dust storm that hit Sydney yesterday made news around the world - it was like something you see in futuristic movies.

Yes, stairs are a real issue for me - I avoid them like the plague.

Sorry to give the impression I was "desperate" - that's not quite how I would describe it these days (but I have been, more than desperate, in past years especially 2004,5 & 2006 when I nearly lost my job).

It is unbelievely difficult (at times) to keep up a full time, often stressful job, when you have chronic fatigue & pain. To sit in a desk & swivel from writing on the desk in front of you to the right in front of my computer screen to type & do data entry, backwards & forwards dozens of times in the day with severe disc disease & chronic hip & sciatic pain is very wearing. I have no lumbar disc at the L4/5 area left now, so it's bone rubbing on bone. Without the disc, it sometimes feels as if my back has no flexibility at all. I don't have the same degree of pain I had from 2005-8 before my back surgery, but it can still be troublesome & painful if I am not mindful of the way I sit & move.

It is easy to balance sitting, standing, walking & lying down on the weekend - I feel really pretty good then. But if I have a bad disturbed night's sleep, my alternative therapies have little impact & I am forced to take prescription analgesics (which I hate). I just do not either, like drugs, nor approve of their chronic use.

It goes against my personal philosophy & ideas on healthy living.

I believe in treating the whole body. not masking symptoms with copious amounts of drugs to get through the day.

On the whole though, I am 10 times better than a few years ago. I am actually starting to get some form of life back outside working hours.

This is a great breakthrough for me, and I cannot stress enough, that if you can find the right combination of therapies & treatment, a whole new world opens up and sanity comes back into your life.

I can admit to many times during long excruciating pain episodes (for hours on end during the nights) when I contemplated suicide. I can admit to times when I could quite literally have strangled my Boss & co-workers when they made insensitive, un-educated comments & trivialized my severe & debilatating symptoms.:mad:

Invisiable chronic illness is not just about the physical symptoms, it is about the soul destroying impact on your spirit & will to live.

A very good friend committed suicide about 10 years ago & when we 4 girfriends got together after the funeral to share our grief & bewilderment at her actions, none of us had an inkling of why she felt that she wanted to die.

I understand her motives in that desperate act now. She didn't want to die at all.

She just didn't want to live.

Life had become unlivable. Life had become unbearable.

Thank goodness those days for me have gone. I have regained Hope and regained a reason for living.

I am sure many (if not most) of the Forum members on this site can relate to feelings of despair & hopelessness. But there is always something that can be done to improve your state of being - even if only changing the way you see your illness.

Accepting the reality of chronic illness is the first step.

Being pro-active & being informed is the next step.

And so on......

Victoria:)
 
brenda;bt149 said:
Victoria

Sorry to hear about your hip problems. I have borrelia in all joints now but have managed to remain mobile this past year whereas in time past I could not climb stairs - I put it all down to the miracle life I am living at the moment.

I really hope and pray for you that you will be able to avoid a crash and then you really will have no choice in the matter. Your situation sounds desperate.

Wow an earthquake! We are enjoying a late summer in Germany.

Brenda
Brenda,

thanks for the good wishes. Earthquakes in Eastern Australia are relatively miniscule except for one in the state of New South Wales some years ago.

The couple we had on Tuesday night were very noticable in some suburbs of Melbourne & down the peninsula below Melbourne. But the red dust storm that hit Sydney yesterday made news around the world - it was like something you see in futuristic movies.

Yes, stairs are a real issue for me - I avoid them like the plague.

Sorry to give the impression I was "desperate" - that's not quite how I would describe it these days (but I have been, more than desperate, in past years especially 2004,5 & 2006 when I nearly lost my job).

It is unbelievely difficult (at times) to keep up a full time, often stressful job, when you have chronic fatigue & pain. To sit in a desk & swivel from writing on the desk in front of you to the right in front of my computer screen to type & do data entry, backwards & forwards dozens of times in the day with severe disc disease & chronic hip & sciatic pain is very wearing. I have no lumbar disc at the L4/5 area left now, so it's bone rubbing on bone. Without the disc, it sometimes feels as if my back has no flexibility at all. I don't have the same degree of pain I had from 2005-8 before my back surgery, but it can still be troublesome & painful if I am not mindful of the way I sit & move.

It is easy to balance sitting, standing, walking & lying down on the weekend - I feel really pretty good then. But if I have a bad disturbed night's sleep, my alternative therapies have little impact & I am forced to take prescription analgesics (which I hate). I just do not either, like drugs, nor approve of their chronic use.

It goes against my personal philosophy & ideas on healthy living.

I believe in treating the whole body. not masking symptoms with copious amounts of drugs to get through the day.

On the whole though, I am 10 times better than a few years ago. I am actually starting to get some form of life back outside working hours.

This is a great breakthrough for me, and I cannot stress enough, that if you can find the right combination of therapies & treatment, a whole new world opens up and sanity comes back into your life.

I can admit to many times during long excruciating pain episodes (for hours on end during the nights) for months on end during those bad years, when I contemplated suicide. I can admit to times when I could quite literally have strangled my Boss & co-workers when they made insensitive, un-educated comments & trivialized my severe & debilatating symptoms.:mad:

Invisiable chronic illness is not just about the physical symptoms, it is about the soul destroying impact on your spirit & will to live.

A very good friend committed suicide about 10 years ago & when we 4 girfriends got together after the funeral to share our grief & bewilderment at her actions, none of us had an inkling of why she felt that she wanted to die.

I understand her motives in that desperate act now. She didn't want to die at all.

She just didn't want to live.

Life had become unlivable. Life had become unbearable.

Thank goodness those days for me have gone. I have regained Hope and regained a reason for living.

I am sure many (if not most) of the Forum members on this site can relate to feelings of despair & hopelessness. But there is always something that can be done to improve your state of being - even if only changing the way you see your illness.

Accepting the reality of chronic illness is the first step.

Being pro-active & being informed is the next step.

And so on......

Victoria:)
 
Victoria

Good to hear that you are not on the downward slope, I was quite concerned to hear that you are needing to beat your adrenals with caffeinne to get some energy in a morning, though things can quickly go downhill when one is doing that.

It's been quite a steep learning curve for me coming onto this form - I had not realised the extent of the progress of my Lyme until I read klutzo as I have not had any medical care or tests like she has so i was in ignorance.

Keeping hope alive is everything I see. Medically there is no hope - I am on the way out and the mental symptoms are just about unbearable at times. Life is unliveable. But I don't see why I can't heal - if one organ can come back why not all of them?

Anyway thanks for all of the information you are providing - it is very helpful.

I do hope you can find a way to heal your back problems by regrowing cartiledge.

Strange happenings in the world today!

Brenda
 
Wildaisy;bt227 said:
To both Victoria and Brenda,

I read this blog entry with great interest. When I was still healthy, I did some juicing, and I enjoyed it. But (you knew that was coming, didn't you..) I had bought one of those big, very heavy Champion juicers and it took enormous time and effort to get the vegs and set up the juicer and clean up afterward. Eventually, I didn't take the time any more and gave away the juicer to my (smarter) brother and my brother and sister-in-law have been juicing ever since.

Now I am thinking of trying juicing again, and I am wondering if there is not some better option in a juicer now available.

If you have any ideas, would you please let me know.
---Patricia
Patricia,

I can't suggest anything as I live in Australia, but if you can find the right thread, we all discussed blenders (including me in Australia). Not that I was much help.

The Champion juicer is one of the best & even I could have got that one here. But I was looking for something quick, easy to clean & a large shute so I didn't have to chop vegies up small (like in my old juicer which I had for 25 years).

The reason I don't juice now is purely because I cannot carry the volume of organic vegies for the week's juicing on the bus. I have a shopping trolley, but it is always full of organic salad & vegetables (which I eat quite big volumes of) & bits & pieces from the health food shop (eg walnuts & seeds & vitamins)

See if you can find that other thread.

In the meantime, try & get hold of N W Walker's book on Fresh Vegetable & Fruit Juices publ in about 1970. He talks about health & give you quantities & different combinations for different health problems. I really think he is the best writer on juicing. The Weston Bate Foundation on the internet also have some juicing ideas (I think).

Anyway, I only juiced vegies. Fruit has too much sugar when juiced. It's better to eat the whole fruit & get the fibre.

And I believe it's better to only juice organic vegies because even if you wash ordinary vegetables, with juicing, you are going to get a big amount of pesticide.

So organic is the way to go.

More expensive, but worth it.

Victoria :)
 

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