New member Dog Person, has looked at my Doctors Data hair mineral results from a test done two years ago, and told me she thought I had a riboflavin deficiency.
Dog person's hair analysis thread
My name is Christine Huebner
Apparently, it can develop when there is an extra call on it, for example, when synthetic folic acid is not being converted to folate, when using vit C and Vit D.
Because flour products are fortified with folic acid, this is a source of trouble for some/many and many B complexes contain folic acid.
(dry eye syndrome - one symptom of B2 deficiency)
So basically what you are saying is, it's really not beneficial for "anyone" to be taking a high potency B-complex formulation due to it being overkill due to your body excreting out most of it and also the detrimental effects of lowering B-2 even further?
His manganese level is coming up, indicating that he has enough B2 to convert Folic acid to its active form, which activates choline, which allows the liver to store manganese. When you can retain manganese, the ER structures in the liver keep healing and as they heal more iron and copper can be released.
I do not have the more obvious physical signs of B-2 deficiency, but funny you mentioned longitudinal ridges on the nails can be a sign. I've had them on my nails for as long as I can remember
Also, 25 mg seems to be the upper limit one can absorb at any one time, so taking more than 25 mg at one time would apparently not lead to greater absorption of riboflavin.
"Please do not supplement anything else from your list. Most important that you not take the vitamin D and Vitamin C you listed.These were dramatically depleting your B2."
From Rich:
"Hi, dog person.
"As I understand it, folic acid is the oxidized form of folate, and to be used in the body it must be reduced to tetrahydrofolate. However, this is done by two sequential reactions catalyzed by DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase), which requires NADPH, but does not require riboflavin.
"The active forms of folate that are found in natural foods, which are mainly 5-methyltetrahydrofolate and folinic acid are already reduced, and do not require riboflavin or anything else to reduce them. The gut normally has no difficulty removing the extra glutamates and absorbing the natural folate forms, using the enzyme you mentioned.
"You may be thinking of the MTHFR enzyme, which converts 5,10 methylene tetrahydrofolate to 5-methyltetrahydrofolate. This enzyme does require FAD as a cofactor, which is one of the two coenzyme forms of riboflavin."
From Dog Person:
But how do you get to NADPH?
Rich:
O.K., I get it. Both pathways for the synthesis of NAD (from either niacin or tryptophan) require ATP, as does the phosphorylation of NAD to form NADP, which is the basis for NADPH. Most of the ATP is made in the mitochondria, and the mitochondria use riboflavin in several reactions. So, it's hard to do much without riboflavin, isn't it?
-)
Here's a P.S. to my previous post: I see that an enzyme in the pathway from tryptophan to NAD, i.e. kynurenine monooxygenase, requires FAD as a cofactor. So there's another place where riboflavin sneaks in!-)
Keep up the good work on the dogs (and the people!)
One more thing: In the methylation cycle, where SAMe is produced, the enzyme methionine synthase reductase also needs FAD, so riboflavin deficiency will mess up both the folate metabolism and the methylation cycle. It's an important cofactor in the methylation treatments for ME/CFS that Freddd and I have suggested.
---------
How do other nutrients interact with vitamin B2?
Vitamin B2 status is strongly affected by intake of vitamin B1. Adequate supplies of vitamin B1 can help increase levels of vitamin B2. However, very high levels of vitamin B1 intake can increase the loss of vitamin B2 in the urine. Other nutrients, especially iron, zinc, folate, vitamin B3 and vitamin B12 are not fully available in the body without adequate supplies of riboflavin.
It goes on to say about B1 "What events can indicate a need for more foods high in vitamin B1?
Loss of appetite
"Pins and needles" sensations
Feeling of numbness, especially in the legs
Muscle tenderness, particularly in the calf muscles
Dog Person:
"Just wanted to help you understand what is occurring. When you now have taken the B2 (any kind), without adding lots of other supplements that normally depleted it and did not allow you to see any observable effect from B2, you now are seeing effects. The first thing your body did was convert it to an enzyme, release iron from the liver storage, send the iron to the bone marrow to start manufacturing new RBC's with hemoglobin, instead of zinc and lead. The body always wants to do life critical things with vitamins first. Oxygenating tissues and iron used in the vision cycle and antioxidant systems and immune systems is considered life critical. But using B2 for fatty acid synthesis needed for soft skin, is not life critical. So, since you now have iron out, lead and zinc released, the lead needs to be quelched with radical quelching systems (requires B2), the zinc asks more of B2 as you wrote in a precious email, and the iron that is now constantly being put into RBC's, used and recycled again wants more B2 to keep this process going. So your skin, especially the hands will show that you now have even less B2, even though you took more B2 than previously before starting. It's because what you took, started a process, a chain reaction that now wants more B2. But since the liver is not functioning adequately enough yet to keep up with the demands that any additional amount of B2 would be given, (like when Brenda was sweating or Dreambirdie got all congested), there is always a lag - which reveils the B2 deficiency. Hope that helps you understand little. Just go slower if you have adverse symptoms, by taking less of each dose or less doses per day or take a day off. You seriously do not want adverse symtpoms. You want to move forward comfortably so you know you are not placing oxidative stress on your body."
In my opinion, this is why many people have an allergy to peanuts. Peanuts are extremely high in choline, folic acid and niacin; all used in the methylation process. When the balance of the other B vitamins is off in relation to those a reaction or allergy as the medical community terms it, will occur. This is the body indicating that the balance is off. I have seen this with several of my clients we supplement the missing Bs and they can then eat peanuts without adverse symptoms. Ive also seen this work for strawberries, eggs, and various other diagnosed allergies, including mine for nickel.
Let me explain this: I would see a dog have cracked and bleeding lips and nose skin. This is B2 deficiency according to various nutrition guides for dogs. So I would just supplement B2 - alittle. They would improve, but not completly. So I would supplement alittle more B2 and then the crackes would worsen. So then I would try folic acid which also could be the deficiency for those symptoms. Same result - start to improve, then go bad again. Next I tried B12, next I tried niacin, then I tried zinc, then I tried and I tried and I tried . . . .
What I found was I could recreate the same identical set of deficiency symptoms regardless of if I used high levels of any one of the b's, zinc, magnesium, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, copper or iron. This was when I learned it truely is the balance of them all that matters becasue they work together. Just like an orchestra, for the music to be beautiful, you need the right amount of each instrument.
Adreno:
"Just to be clear; studies show that a maximum of ~27mg riboflavin can be absorbed at a time (taken orally). So taking a 100mg dose is essentially the same as taking 27mg.
"Also, studies show that riboflavin is much better absorbed with meals, so I wouldn't take it half hour before.
The half life of riboflavin is about 1 hour."
DP:
"Biotin and manganese or magnesium are needed in an enzyme reaction that uses another enzyme called pyruvate decarboxylase. This enzyme is critical for the energy citric acid cycle."
Manganese might help w/the headaches. Go slow.
Dog person's hair analysis thread
My name is Christine Huebner
Apparently, it can develop when there is an extra call on it, for example, when synthetic folic acid is not being converted to folate, when using vit C and Vit D.
Because flour products are fortified with folic acid, this is a source of trouble for some/many and many B complexes contain folic acid.
(dry eye syndrome - one symptom of B2 deficiency)
So basically what you are saying is, it's really not beneficial for "anyone" to be taking a high potency B-complex formulation due to it being overkill due to your body excreting out most of it and also the detrimental effects of lowering B-2 even further?
His manganese level is coming up, indicating that he has enough B2 to convert Folic acid to its active form, which activates choline, which allows the liver to store manganese. When you can retain manganese, the ER structures in the liver keep healing and as they heal more iron and copper can be released.
I do not have the more obvious physical signs of B-2 deficiency, but funny you mentioned longitudinal ridges on the nails can be a sign. I've had them on my nails for as long as I can remember
Also, 25 mg seems to be the upper limit one can absorb at any one time, so taking more than 25 mg at one time would apparently not lead to greater absorption of riboflavin.
"Please do not supplement anything else from your list. Most important that you not take the vitamin D and Vitamin C you listed.These were dramatically depleting your B2."
From Rich:
"Hi, dog person.
"As I understand it, folic acid is the oxidized form of folate, and to be used in the body it must be reduced to tetrahydrofolate. However, this is done by two sequential reactions catalyzed by DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase), which requires NADPH, but does not require riboflavin.
"The active forms of folate that are found in natural foods, which are mainly 5-methyltetrahydrofolate and folinic acid are already reduced, and do not require riboflavin or anything else to reduce them. The gut normally has no difficulty removing the extra glutamates and absorbing the natural folate forms, using the enzyme you mentioned.
"You may be thinking of the MTHFR enzyme, which converts 5,10 methylene tetrahydrofolate to 5-methyltetrahydrofolate. This enzyme does require FAD as a cofactor, which is one of the two coenzyme forms of riboflavin."
From Dog Person:
But how do you get to NADPH?
Rich:
O.K., I get it. Both pathways for the synthesis of NAD (from either niacin or tryptophan) require ATP, as does the phosphorylation of NAD to form NADP, which is the basis for NADPH. Most of the ATP is made in the mitochondria, and the mitochondria use riboflavin in several reactions. So, it's hard to do much without riboflavin, isn't it?
-)Here's a P.S. to my previous post: I see that an enzyme in the pathway from tryptophan to NAD, i.e. kynurenine monooxygenase, requires FAD as a cofactor. So there's another place where riboflavin sneaks in!
-)Keep up the good work on the dogs (and the people!)
One more thing: In the methylation cycle, where SAMe is produced, the enzyme methionine synthase reductase also needs FAD, so riboflavin deficiency will mess up both the folate metabolism and the methylation cycle. It's an important cofactor in the methylation treatments for ME/CFS that Freddd and I have suggested.
---------
How do other nutrients interact with vitamin B2?
Vitamin B2 status is strongly affected by intake of vitamin B1. Adequate supplies of vitamin B1 can help increase levels of vitamin B2. However, very high levels of vitamin B1 intake can increase the loss of vitamin B2 in the urine. Other nutrients, especially iron, zinc, folate, vitamin B3 and vitamin B12 are not fully available in the body without adequate supplies of riboflavin.
It goes on to say about B1 "What events can indicate a need for more foods high in vitamin B1?
Loss of appetite
"Pins and needles" sensations
Feeling of numbness, especially in the legs
Muscle tenderness, particularly in the calf muscles
Dog Person:
"Just wanted to help you understand what is occurring. When you now have taken the B2 (any kind), without adding lots of other supplements that normally depleted it and did not allow you to see any observable effect from B2, you now are seeing effects. The first thing your body did was convert it to an enzyme, release iron from the liver storage, send the iron to the bone marrow to start manufacturing new RBC's with hemoglobin, instead of zinc and lead. The body always wants to do life critical things with vitamins first. Oxygenating tissues and iron used in the vision cycle and antioxidant systems and immune systems is considered life critical. But using B2 for fatty acid synthesis needed for soft skin, is not life critical. So, since you now have iron out, lead and zinc released, the lead needs to be quelched with radical quelching systems (requires B2), the zinc asks more of B2 as you wrote in a precious email, and the iron that is now constantly being put into RBC's, used and recycled again wants more B2 to keep this process going. So your skin, especially the hands will show that you now have even less B2, even though you took more B2 than previously before starting. It's because what you took, started a process, a chain reaction that now wants more B2. But since the liver is not functioning adequately enough yet to keep up with the demands that any additional amount of B2 would be given, (like when Brenda was sweating or Dreambirdie got all congested), there is always a lag - which reveils the B2 deficiency. Hope that helps you understand little. Just go slower if you have adverse symptoms, by taking less of each dose or less doses per day or take a day off. You seriously do not want adverse symtpoms. You want to move forward comfortably so you know you are not placing oxidative stress on your body."
In my opinion, this is why many people have an allergy to peanuts. Peanuts are extremely high in choline, folic acid and niacin; all used in the methylation process. When the balance of the other B vitamins is off in relation to those a reaction or allergy as the medical community terms it, will occur. This is the body indicating that the balance is off. I have seen this with several of my clients we supplement the missing Bs and they can then eat peanuts without adverse symptoms. Ive also seen this work for strawberries, eggs, and various other diagnosed allergies, including mine for nickel.
Let me explain this: I would see a dog have cracked and bleeding lips and nose skin. This is B2 deficiency according to various nutrition guides for dogs. So I would just supplement B2 - alittle. They would improve, but not completly. So I would supplement alittle more B2 and then the crackes would worsen. So then I would try folic acid which also could be the deficiency for those symptoms. Same result - start to improve, then go bad again. Next I tried B12, next I tried niacin, then I tried zinc, then I tried and I tried and I tried . . . .
What I found was I could recreate the same identical set of deficiency symptoms regardless of if I used high levels of any one of the b's, zinc, magnesium, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, copper or iron. This was when I learned it truely is the balance of them all that matters becasue they work together. Just like an orchestra, for the music to be beautiful, you need the right amount of each instrument.
Adreno:
"Just to be clear; studies show that a maximum of ~27mg riboflavin can be absorbed at a time (taken orally). So taking a 100mg dose is essentially the same as taking 27mg.
"Also, studies show that riboflavin is much better absorbed with meals, so I wouldn't take it half hour before.
The half life of riboflavin is about 1 hour."
DP:
"Biotin and manganese or magnesium are needed in an enzyme reaction that uses another enzyme called pyruvate decarboxylase. This enzyme is critical for the energy citric acid cycle."
Manganese might help w/the headaches. Go slow.
