Methyl Trap:
What is Methyl Trapping Forum entry
How to untrap a Methyl Trap
Freddd:
Rich gives a very good desription of it somewhere that could be found. Basically the "methyltrap" (hypothesis for 30 years or so) occurs when there is not enough MeCbl for the methylfolate in the cell to complete it's function and it is kicked out of the cell, causing distinctive folate deficiency symptoms instead of the MeCbl deficiency symptoms that would be expected. It is a more severe level of methylation block than the partial methylation block.
"Methylfolate doesn’t cause methyltrap. It is what is being blocked or trapped Lack of MeCbl causes methyltrap. Glutathione/NAC can cause methyltrap. Folic acid and folinic acid appear to cause partial methylation block as opposed to methyltrap unless it is effective and then a shortage of MeCbl causes methyltrap or partial methylation block. That is a problem with folic and folinic acid is that one never knows what the result means, it can mean that it is working or not working, depending upon the person’s own response and their MeCbl content. Keeping methylfolate “below” MeCbl amounts will cause endless donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency. There is almost no relationship between amount of MeCbl and amount of Methylfolate that might be needed."
Martial:
"I would first be sure to stay away from any whole foods containing any amounts of folic acid this is the biggest methyl trap issue for most. Also obviously avoid supplemental form of folic acid, and no NAC, Whey, or glutathione supplements.. Keep potassium intake high..
Also avoid all NAC, Folic acid in all forms, whey protein, and Glutathione supplements.. those are all methyl traps..
"folinic acid supplements, and folic acid supplements, also folic acid fortified foods like certain kinds of breads and grains, cold cereal, some protein and nutrition bars, just be sure to look at labels when you purchase groceries. Folate from vegetables is the bio available form, folic acid is a synthetic man made form of folate and this is what causes trapping. Too much veggies also causes some issues with supplemental folate being held onto, usually pretty benign but this is with ALOT of veggies lol, Fred would usually suggest just take a bit more folate in this case in supplement form.. usually an extra 1mg-3mg does it well.
Nac is a supplement that raises glutathione levels in the body, it interferes and takes cobalt away from the new cell growth to create more glutathione.. The methylation protocol is already meant to raise the bodies natural production of glutathione as is, so supplemental glutathione creates an overload. Whey protein powder is isolated and extracted from the by product of certain processing of cheeses, and milk, its a supplemental powder usually used for weight training. It is not naturally found in dairy products. Just look out for things that are fortified with whey protein like nutrition or protein bars for example. so NAC, Whey Protien, Folic Acid, folinic acid "another supplement form of folic ", and any glutathione pre cursor supplements, or shots are all the things to watch out for.."
(Also read that in some people some natural folates in green veggies can cause methyl block)
Freddds protocol recommendation:
" You will need Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion 1mg or Country Life Methyl b12 5mg, Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdoCbl), Solgar or other brand of Metafolin (I'm suggesting that for startup because I know how that works with these others and haven't tested the other brands and forms of l-methylfolate. Then the Jarrow Liquid L-carnitine for microtitration. In addition I would suggest Potassium Gluconate tablets to start with. Again you may have other preferences as things go along, there is a lot of customizing essential. In addition a low dose b-complex, I use the Nature Made B-complex with C for two doses a day, A, D, e, C, magnesium, zinc, omega3 oils, lecithin or some other more specialized products of which there has been some discussion recently., a multi mineral and some others. Too high a dose of B1, B2 and B3 can cause all sorts of problems. No Folic acid, no folinic acid, no green drinks, no NAC, no glutathione or precursors. After one gets healing started it's obvious what helps and what doesn't. I spent the first 5 years learning how to get things to start reliably."
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue,IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS –Normal alternating with constipation, IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.
For instance, with methyltrap a lot of these symptoms can come on in a day or five. With low b12 it can take 6 months or more. Partial methylation block starts with 1 or 2 symptoms very quickly and may add more or get worse or may not. For me I get things like angular cheilitis, scalp and face acne type lesions withing 2-3 days, IBS in 5 days and peeling and cracking skin on my fingertips in 2-3 weeks, but that starts changing right away but takes a while to become obvious. It takes practice to recognize the changing symptoms.
Branston: Freddd, what are 'distinctive folate deficiency ' symptoms that would help you differentiate from B12 deficiency?
Freddd: I see nothing at all wrong with adding the folate from the start. Otherwise you just have cause of symptoms swapping back and forth. To heal you need the l-methyylfolate and MeCbl hitting the cells at the same time. If you take the folate 30-60 minutes before a sublingual, absorbtion and retention appears better, usually a small improvement, but then thats what I have done for 10 years, after the big ones are in place.
Some people start the folate days or weeks before. It only take 5 minutes for the MeCbl to start spreading throughout the body with a sublingual. Taking one dose and feeling awful can be for all sorts of reasons. Without knowing what else and all sorts of details it is impossible to even make a reasoned guess. Take them together. Swallow a l-methylfolate and put the MeCbl AND AdoCbl under you lips. That way you are NOT doing that. The particular genetic info is useless here. It just doesn't matter. The horrid symptoms can be methyltrap which can hit in minutes and hard and/or paradocical folate deficiency and/or low potassium. Those don't depend on genes. They can happen to anybody depending upon the exact details of their situation. Methyltrap is the fastest hardest hitting but can take from an hour to a day to hit.
In my experience, methyltrap hits like a ton of bricks. I had FMS for perhaps 10 years. Then one morning I woke up terribly sick with 100 more symptoms taking shape over the first week. That was the combination of methyltrap and partial ATP block based on what has occurred since then.
Paradoxical folate insufficiency, including donut hole, is much slow and gentler onset. It usually creeps up on you. It doesn't have as many symptoms and it doesn't hit like a ton of bricks.
You are taking plenty of b12 for most healing and certainly enough to keep you out of methyltrap. One of the cautions that comes up now is to be careful of B2 amounts. It can cause what looks like a really severe donut hole folate insufficiency as well as very low potassium which is difficult to correct. For some people relatively too much biotin can overdrive the ATP end of things much as too much B2 appears to overdrive part of the methylation cycle or something of the sort.
Also, NAC and/or glutathione can cause the same set of methyltrap symptoms regardless of how much b12 and folate one takes confusing the issue to no end.
Paradoxical folate deficiency
whodathunkit:
"@Tiger Lily 813 : You might want to read up on "Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency", too. Search it in the forum. I'm new here but have been reading A LOT, and it sounds like you were exhibiting symptoms of that. It's Freddd's theory and seems to hold true for many people (but not all).
"Briefly, the theory is that in order to get well there are multiple levels of healing we must go through to reach wellness. Your first doses of folate start you on that healing. But if the dose is too low to affect *all* the necessary levels of healing, eventually the folate gets spread to thin and can't keep the healing going. So you need progressively larger doses for a while, until you feel normal again. The progressively larger doses keep the healing going.
"It's like cars using gasoline (with the cars being the levels of healing and gas being the folate). One car can get pretty far on one gallon of gas...in the same way that if you only need to heal a little bit, a single 800mcg tab of folate will do you pretty well.
"But if you have four cars and need to split that gallon of gas four ways...none of those cars are going to go very far. You need more gas (folate) or you just won't go.
"Adding more folate can keep the healing going so the healing keeps going.
"Low potassium is also a sign of the paradoxical folate insufficiency. My understanding is that when sludgy cells that haven't been using potassium in a while get kick-started by the folate/methylation supps, they suddenly start intaking potassium again, sucking all available potassium from your bloodstream (or wherever it comes from, like I said I'm new so still sorting it all out, LOL). So you need to add more potassium so your awakened cells can keep on using it, or eventually your cells will run out, making you feel crappy and causing other symptoms. It's basically like a sponge needing more water to become saturated.
"I'm no expert, just, like I said, a noob with a lot of what she's read still fresh in her mind. And trying to explain what I've read to other people helps me sort things out in my own head.
"Not saying the paradoxical insufficiency is your problem...but it probably wouldn't hurt for you to read up on it, if you haven't already."
Donut Hole folate deficiency
Freddd: "Let’s say a person starts with a 200mcg dose of Metafolin with sufficient MeCbl-AdoCbl to start healing. In about three days frequently occur low potassium and/or donut hole folate insufficiency as a set of symptoms often called “detox”. The folate insufficiency symptoms can be relieved by taking enough Metafolin. If a person titrates at 200mcg per day they likely will not resolve the symptoms. That is because the additional folate generates additional need and plenty of time to start even more healing."
Martial: "It describes methyl folate causing an inflammatory response and to start slowly and back off if there is inflammation.. However this in practice has related more to paradoxical folate deficiency then an inflammation response to folate alone.. This happens when someone introduces a very low dose of folate along side the methyl b12 and you get donut hole folate deficiency which sometimes mostly needs to be handled by high dose folate and b12."
How to Titrate to Get Out of Donut Hole Insufficiency
What is Methyl Trapping Forum entry
How to untrap a Methyl Trap
Freddd:
Rich gives a very good desription of it somewhere that could be found. Basically the "methyltrap" (hypothesis for 30 years or so) occurs when there is not enough MeCbl for the methylfolate in the cell to complete it's function and it is kicked out of the cell, causing distinctive folate deficiency symptoms instead of the MeCbl deficiency symptoms that would be expected. It is a more severe level of methylation block than the partial methylation block.
"Methylfolate doesn’t cause methyltrap. It is what is being blocked or trapped Lack of MeCbl causes methyltrap. Glutathione/NAC can cause methyltrap. Folic acid and folinic acid appear to cause partial methylation block as opposed to methyltrap unless it is effective and then a shortage of MeCbl causes methyltrap or partial methylation block. That is a problem with folic and folinic acid is that one never knows what the result means, it can mean that it is working or not working, depending upon the person’s own response and their MeCbl content. Keeping methylfolate “below” MeCbl amounts will cause endless donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency. There is almost no relationship between amount of MeCbl and amount of Methylfolate that might be needed."
Martial:
"I would first be sure to stay away from any whole foods containing any amounts of folic acid this is the biggest methyl trap issue for most. Also obviously avoid supplemental form of folic acid, and no NAC, Whey, or glutathione supplements.. Keep potassium intake high..
Also avoid all NAC, Folic acid in all forms, whey protein, and Glutathione supplements.. those are all methyl traps..
"folinic acid supplements, and folic acid supplements, also folic acid fortified foods like certain kinds of breads and grains, cold cereal, some protein and nutrition bars, just be sure to look at labels when you purchase groceries. Folate from vegetables is the bio available form, folic acid is a synthetic man made form of folate and this is what causes trapping. Too much veggies also causes some issues with supplemental folate being held onto, usually pretty benign but this is with ALOT of veggies lol, Fred would usually suggest just take a bit more folate in this case in supplement form.. usually an extra 1mg-3mg does it well.
Nac is a supplement that raises glutathione levels in the body, it interferes and takes cobalt away from the new cell growth to create more glutathione.. The methylation protocol is already meant to raise the bodies natural production of glutathione as is, so supplemental glutathione creates an overload. Whey protein powder is isolated and extracted from the by product of certain processing of cheeses, and milk, its a supplemental powder usually used for weight training. It is not naturally found in dairy products. Just look out for things that are fortified with whey protein like nutrition or protein bars for example. so NAC, Whey Protien, Folic Acid, folinic acid "another supplement form of folic ", and any glutathione pre cursor supplements, or shots are all the things to watch out for.."
(Also read that in some people some natural folates in green veggies can cause methyl block)
Freddds protocol recommendation:
" You will need Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion 1mg or Country Life Methyl b12 5mg, Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdoCbl), Solgar or other brand of Metafolin (I'm suggesting that for startup because I know how that works with these others and haven't tested the other brands and forms of l-methylfolate. Then the Jarrow Liquid L-carnitine for microtitration. In addition I would suggest Potassium Gluconate tablets to start with. Again you may have other preferences as things go along, there is a lot of customizing essential. In addition a low dose b-complex, I use the Nature Made B-complex with C for two doses a day, A, D, e, C, magnesium, zinc, omega3 oils, lecithin or some other more specialized products of which there has been some discussion recently., a multi mineral and some others. Too high a dose of B1, B2 and B3 can cause all sorts of problems. No Folic acid, no folinic acid, no green drinks, no NAC, no glutathione or precursors. After one gets healing started it's obvious what helps and what doesn't. I spent the first 5 years learning how to get things to start reliably."
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue,IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS –Normal alternating with constipation, IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.
For instance, with methyltrap a lot of these symptoms can come on in a day or five. With low b12 it can take 6 months or more. Partial methylation block starts with 1 or 2 symptoms very quickly and may add more or get worse or may not. For me I get things like angular cheilitis, scalp and face acne type lesions withing 2-3 days, IBS in 5 days and peeling and cracking skin on my fingertips in 2-3 weeks, but that starts changing right away but takes a while to become obvious. It takes practice to recognize the changing symptoms.
Branston: Freddd, what are 'distinctive folate deficiency ' symptoms that would help you differentiate from B12 deficiency?
Freddd: I see nothing at all wrong with adding the folate from the start. Otherwise you just have cause of symptoms swapping back and forth. To heal you need the l-methyylfolate and MeCbl hitting the cells at the same time. If you take the folate 30-60 minutes before a sublingual, absorbtion and retention appears better, usually a small improvement, but then thats what I have done for 10 years, after the big ones are in place.
Some people start the folate days or weeks before. It only take 5 minutes for the MeCbl to start spreading throughout the body with a sublingual. Taking one dose and feeling awful can be for all sorts of reasons. Without knowing what else and all sorts of details it is impossible to even make a reasoned guess. Take them together. Swallow a l-methylfolate and put the MeCbl AND AdoCbl under you lips. That way you are NOT doing that. The particular genetic info is useless here. It just doesn't matter. The horrid symptoms can be methyltrap which can hit in minutes and hard and/or paradocical folate deficiency and/or low potassium. Those don't depend on genes. They can happen to anybody depending upon the exact details of their situation. Methyltrap is the fastest hardest hitting but can take from an hour to a day to hit.
In my experience, methyltrap hits like a ton of bricks. I had FMS for perhaps 10 years. Then one morning I woke up terribly sick with 100 more symptoms taking shape over the first week. That was the combination of methyltrap and partial ATP block based on what has occurred since then.
Paradoxical folate insufficiency, including donut hole, is much slow and gentler onset. It usually creeps up on you. It doesn't have as many symptoms and it doesn't hit like a ton of bricks.
You are taking plenty of b12 for most healing and certainly enough to keep you out of methyltrap. One of the cautions that comes up now is to be careful of B2 amounts. It can cause what looks like a really severe donut hole folate insufficiency as well as very low potassium which is difficult to correct. For some people relatively too much biotin can overdrive the ATP end of things much as too much B2 appears to overdrive part of the methylation cycle or something of the sort.
Also, NAC and/or glutathione can cause the same set of methyltrap symptoms regardless of how much b12 and folate one takes confusing the issue to no end.
Paradoxical folate deficiency
whodathunkit:
"@Tiger Lily 813 : You might want to read up on "Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency", too. Search it in the forum. I'm new here but have been reading A LOT, and it sounds like you were exhibiting symptoms of that. It's Freddd's theory and seems to hold true for many people (but not all).
"Briefly, the theory is that in order to get well there are multiple levels of healing we must go through to reach wellness. Your first doses of folate start you on that healing. But if the dose is too low to affect *all* the necessary levels of healing, eventually the folate gets spread to thin and can't keep the healing going. So you need progressively larger doses for a while, until you feel normal again. The progressively larger doses keep the healing going.
"It's like cars using gasoline (with the cars being the levels of healing and gas being the folate). One car can get pretty far on one gallon of gas...in the same way that if you only need to heal a little bit, a single 800mcg tab of folate will do you pretty well.
"But if you have four cars and need to split that gallon of gas four ways...none of those cars are going to go very far. You need more gas (folate) or you just won't go.
"Adding more folate can keep the healing going so the healing keeps going.
"Low potassium is also a sign of the paradoxical folate insufficiency. My understanding is that when sludgy cells that haven't been using potassium in a while get kick-started by the folate/methylation supps, they suddenly start intaking potassium again, sucking all available potassium from your bloodstream (or wherever it comes from, like I said I'm new so still sorting it all out, LOL). So you need to add more potassium so your awakened cells can keep on using it, or eventually your cells will run out, making you feel crappy and causing other symptoms. It's basically like a sponge needing more water to become saturated.
"I'm no expert, just, like I said, a noob with a lot of what she's read still fresh in her mind. And trying to explain what I've read to other people helps me sort things out in my own head.
"Not saying the paradoxical insufficiency is your problem...but it probably wouldn't hurt for you to read up on it, if you haven't already."
Donut Hole folate deficiency
Freddd: "Let’s say a person starts with a 200mcg dose of Metafolin with sufficient MeCbl-AdoCbl to start healing. In about three days frequently occur low potassium and/or donut hole folate insufficiency as a set of symptoms often called “detox”. The folate insufficiency symptoms can be relieved by taking enough Metafolin. If a person titrates at 200mcg per day they likely will not resolve the symptoms. That is because the additional folate generates additional need and plenty of time to start even more healing."
Martial: "It describes methyl folate causing an inflammatory response and to start slowly and back off if there is inflammation.. However this in practice has related more to paradoxical folate deficiency then an inflammation response to folate alone.. This happens when someone introduces a very low dose of folate along side the methyl b12 and you get donut hole folate deficiency which sometimes mostly needs to be handled by high dose folate and b12."
How to Titrate to Get Out of Donut Hole Insufficiency
