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Another Previous protocol

Over the summer I had about 6-7 weeks of spontaneous remission of my symptoms. I was nearly my old self again after 12 years of CFS. Then it was back to business as usual after a beach vacation in late July. Trying to put together the pieces of this puzzle. Since it was so recent I have a good list of every factor (I believe) that may have contributed to this. Now working on re-attaining this remission.

I believe I have Histamine/Mast Cell/Lectin issues and am working some supplements into the mix. The Vitamin C I take has Rutin and Hesperidin both of which can address Histamine/Mast Cell issues. During this time I was also eating Naval oranges also high in Hesperidin and Limonene. Also eating carrots which is one of the veggies that have antihistamine properties. Things seems to be pointing to histamine issues and possible I'm an overmethylated type.

Update: Starting to lean toward the idea that the Hesperidin is the key here. I got some in the mail on Friday and taking about 100mg that day of was feeling as good as I did over the summer. Will be working on a titration for this the next week or two.

Daily:
Organic Carrot in the AM
100 mg Hesperidin (being careful not to take if feeling well. Assume it's doing something with histamine and don't want to deplete reserves all the way. Want to stay in the "zone" with histamine)
*8am 10-20mg Source Naturals p5p and 500 mg Jarrow tryptophan (*not taking currently)
500mg Dr's Best timed release Niacin about noon (some times on workout days)
50-100mg Nature's Way Niacin (want the niacin flush) 20 mins before workout (about noon) on gym days (4 days per week anaerobic resistance training - weights. Seems very important to exercise after niacin)
16 oz MTHFRAde during workout

@ Lunch:
1000mg Ester-C 24 Hour Immune Support. (Contains: 1000mg Vitamin C, 110 mg Calcium, 102 mg Bioflavonoid Complex including (Rutin, Hesperidin)). Also afterwards calcium ascorbate 800mg.

Before bed:
EPA Fish Oil, Beta Care All, Multi E, Dr's Best High Absorption Magnesium Glycinate 100mg

The Niacin, exercise and Ester-C I believe are the core of this. The p5p and Trypto now actually helping to make serotonin now that I think I've got enough B3 in my system. Not sure if I've stumbled upon Dr Yu's Niacin Detox Cleanse by chance or some other thing is happening like correcting a deficiency.

General: Diet trying to limit junk and not overeat.

Still working on this had success early on with large dose of B3. Had a day of absolute bliss so I believe I'm on the right track.

Notes:

From what I'm reading below and just from a Niacin and Histamine angle I should be low histamine and a high methylator. From a detox POV who knows?

Dr. Ben from this link
  1. Nicotinic acid (Niacin USP) requires SAMe to be metabolized. SAMe is a major methyl donor. Thus, when one consumes niacin, SAMe gets used up and methyl donors drop. Thereby excessive methylation goes away.
  2. Nicotinic acid also supports the elimination of glutamate. Many with elevated levels of glutamate do not do well with methylfolate or any type of folate until the levels of glutamate are balanced.
  3. Niacin supports the feedback inhibition of the IDO1 gene which feeds into the kyurenine pathway. This pathway can deplete one’s tryptophan levels which makes them low in serotonin. The niacin slows the loss of tryptophan by pushing it towards serotonin formation.
Dr. Ben from this link
(near the bottom, search: "Lynch")
“If histamine is high, then you need things like methylfolate and methylcobalamin.

If histamine is low, then you need things like niacin and to limit methylfolate and methylcobalamin for a bit.

High histamine = low methylator = greater need for methylation support such as methylfolate and methylcobalamin.”
Want to link this post of mine from a year ago where I was taking the Vitamin C that has Rutin and Hesperidin.

Comments

Nice update, sregan, glad everything is going well for you! :)

I'm really interested in your progress with the exercise angle of niacin. May give that a try. Niacin has been pretty much a no-go for me, even before I started methylation, but I've never heard of niacin detox and your post put me onto some interesting reading via google. I hadn't really delved into my niacin issues since I accepted that niacin uses up methyl groups and I figured I needed all the methylgroups I had, but maybe another part of the problem for me is histamine per @dannybex's post, since niacin does seem to give me the symptoms of histamine release. Guess we'll see...

P.S. Are you getting regular liver checks since you're taking all this niacin?
 
Danny, I'm still tweaking this protocol. I had a remission of symptoms for about 6-7 weeks over the summer. Was like nothing was wrong with me. I'm trying to recreate that by doing and taking exactly what I did then. I think I do have histamine issues. I have lots of food sensitivities and when I tried Daosin for the first day or two I thought I was healed. I believe I definitely have some mast cell issues. I'm not taking the methylation supps now but since I was earlier in the year I wondered if that may be what led me to the remission this summer. Wondered if I had cleaned out some poison in my system. Gonna work with this protocol so more. If I can't recreate I will try methylation again then perhaps this protocol afterwards.
 
Whoda - Niacin does give me the flush and in small doses sometimes less than 50mg. I'm thinking the things that "release" histamine if you exercise during your body somehow can remove the histamine? Something is definitely going on there. I was also avoiding Niacin for the same reason but your body needs it for a lot of things. And taking just methyl groups you might use up what you got an leave yourself really deficient. No I'm not getting any testing done. I've since backed off on so much niacin. This summer I wasn't taking the 500's every day. I think I may have just needed it at the beginning to get my levels up a bit.
 
I am concerned about what else I might be or have depleted by taking larger doses of B3. I've grown very cautious about taking just something by itself and not taking into account the co-effects and co-factors.
 
@sregan, you may have really put me onto something here.

I've been struggling with blood sugar issues for a while, and they're pretty stubborn. They're much lower than they were but still not normal, especially first a.m. fasting. It's frustrating considering all the work I've done to try to help myself become less insulin resistant, etc.

Turns out after the reading your post put me onto that histamine may be the key. I never thought histamine was a key for me because I don't get hives or really bad reactions, but I do have a lot of signs of chronic minor inflammation. Higher histamine means increased cortisol which in turn means higher blood glucose, etc. I knew high cortisol in the a.m. was part of my "Dawn Phenomenon" problem with blood sugar, but wasn't necessarily taking it into account when things get a little higher than I want at other times. Histamine could be the key.

At any rate, I'm going to try the niacin detox for a little while to see where it gets me.

Also ran across a "histamine test" in my reading that might be helpful for some:

"some nicotinic acid (the niacin that causes the flush) in 50 mg. dose. If you have high histamine levels then you will experience a flush from only 50 mg. dose. If it takes 100 mg. to cause you to flush then you have normal (or balanced) histamine levels. If it takes from 150 mg. to 250 mg. dose of niacin to flush then you have low histamine levels."

No matter what this little "test" shows up I'm still trying niacin detox for a while, see if I can "power through" the unpleasant sides and get to a better place after the crisis. It's worked for other stuff, maybe it will for this, too. Not taking too much for too long, though. Just a little experiment for a month or less.

And if the niacin does its job maybe I can remember to post my results. ;)

Thanks again, @sregan!
 
Sregan I was just reading some of your earlier blogs about adjusting your balance between MB12 and Mfolate to figure out whats going on with me and if the ratio is part of my issue….I am also +/+ for MTRR and then I came to this more recent post……are you still doing your MB12 & Mfolate or just whats listed here? thanks jm
 
Whodathunkit - that quote you have. I'm sure they refer to flushing after 50mg on an empty stomach. Huge difference there. Also there seem to be some ways to prevent flushing (taking other supps) so one would need to make sure that the niacin is the only thing you take for the test and prior to that test.

Also about the detox everywhere I've read about it encourages sweating. Niacin, then exercise, then sauna or similar. Or if you can sweat while you exercise all the better. Not sure how critical that is.
 
JunieMarie, no I am currently not taking any of the DQ supps at this time. I believe I might be an overmethylated type since my response to B3. I'm working with this at this time and may return to the DQ supps early next year if I find my recent remission was probably due to a "cleaning out" of my toxins due to the DQ supps I took earlier this year.
 
(continued from previous post)

Yesterday I took 150mg again but started exercising and sweating as soon as I took it, before any reactions could happen. Was still exercising when I felt and saw the flush coming on (my shins and toes flush, too!), but that was it. The exercising and sweating completely prevented the negative reactions. Slept really well last night again, too.

Most interesting to me is that when I was younger, when I would start to exercise when I was very out of shape, I would get red all over and a little itchy, like with the niacin.

Today I took 150mgs again, and began exercising upon ingestion. That again prevented the negative reactions, while still allowing a pleasant little flush.

It's all kind of strange and quite interesting. Don't quite know what to make of it yet, but I'm going to try to go the entire 30 days for Wu's detox. Detoxing is important to me right now, as is anything that can purportedly rupture fat cells. I do think there's something to the niacin/detox angle with regards to methylation, particularly in those of us who tend to have a problem with niacin. We'll see how it goes. I'll bump up tomorrow to 200mg and shoot for the upper limit of 500mgs over the next couple weeks. I'll report back if I complete the 30 days or it starts negatively impacting my methylation again.

Thanks again for the idea, @sregan! :)
 
Well, I started niacin last Friday, just for kicks.

I'm actually not having any ongoing bad sides from it, so maybe the problems I had with it earlier on in my methylation regimen had to do with detox because I was heavy (stored toxins in my adipose). I've lost about 70lbs since January, which is a lot of detox. I've certainly felt like I was detoxing quite heavily, numerous times, since I hit PR two years ago and first started methylation protocol.

Anyway, I took 50mg first thing upon awakening Friday, empty stomach, no other supps for an hour. I didn't exercise or sweat, just to see what would happen. No flush, nothing.

Took 100mg Saturday, same way. Same nothing.

Took 150mg on Sunday, same way. Whoa! Hella reaction! I had all the sides: flushed *everywhere*, tingled, itched, sweated, got light-headed, short of breath, and slightly nauseas. I had to sit down twice while gently walking my dogs (abbreviated the walk, too, poor guys), and collapsed into my recliner for a couple hours after we got back to the house. Was kind of logey for the rest of the day. Very interesting. It's not entirely fair to attribute all the logeyness to the niacin becuase there was something else going on that day which always makes me logey, but reaction to the niacin definitely exacerbated it. Slept very well that night, though.

It was eerily similar to the reaction I used to get from taking too much codiene or oxycontin at once, back in the days when I needed painkillers on a semi-regular basis. Definitely an allergic/histamine reaction.

(continued in next post)
 
The flush according to the HeartFixer guy (and other sources) could be the "release" of stored histamine.

"The second mechanism is histamine release, which can be blunted by Benadryl (taken prior to your evening Niaspan, Benadryl may also help your fall asleep) or Bioflavonoids such as Pycnogenol/Grape Seed Extract, taken throughout the day (Bioflavonoids have additional health and cardiovascular benefits). If Histamine stores are depleted by Niacin, then there can be no flushing, the basis for the rapid loading or “jump in the cold lake” approach to Niacin dosing strategy (in mgs) presented below. "
from: http://www.heartfixer.com/CHC%20-%20Medical%20Topics%20-%20Niacin.htm.

Depleting your stored Histamine may be why it takes more and more to get the flush each time.

Possible substances that might also stop the flushing (which you want to allow the flushing I believe) are quercetin and aspirin.

From your story it sounds like exercise, for at least you, might release histamine also? With the niacin you're possibly getting a double whammy.

While I didn't specifically do anything this summer to address the "release of toxins" which I had no idea that was happening (if it was happening). Being summer and I did work around the house outside in the summer I must have sweat some. I got Ron Hubbard's book "Clear Body Clear Mind: The Effective Purification Program" which the main part of the program is Niacin. It's a cheap book and was hoping it would give me some insights into this type of thing since they have had thousands of people go through this detox program. One good thing is it tells you how and when to bump up your dosage.

Basically start @ 100mg (or less) when you stop feeling the benefit then bump up 100mg at a time. Stay there until you feel it lose effectiveness. Until you get to 1000mg. Then bumping up 300-400 mg don't pass 5,000mg.

Please be careful with this, I know there is a possibility of liver problems with higher doses of Niacin.
 
Yeah, I've been doing a little research, too. Until research after reading your post I did not know that niacin was a fairly standard treatment for drug detox and that it might actually help burst or diminish fat cells. Finding that out was what tipped me over into trying it.

Anyway, from what I read it seems that slow- or timed-release niacin is the primary culprit in liver problems. A lot of what I saw said not to take even the non-timed release more than 3x per day because of potential liver problems from hammering it with niacin over the course of a day. But a single dose doesn't seem to cause the problems.

I couldn't take it more than once per day even if I wanted to, b/c when I flush I turn beet red pretty much all over, and I have to work. I bumped up my dose by 50mg (to 200) this morning, and my entire gluteal area even got warm when I was out exercising, which I assumed meant it was flushing, too. It was kind of weird. :lol: When I flush it's very noticeable in my face, neck, chest, and arms, and the nurses I work with would probably be all on me like a duck on a june bug if they could see me about 20 minutes after a 200mg dose. :p I would probably scare a lot of people.

Plus I wouldn't want to take it at night in case it did something to my sleep patterns. So far it seems to be beneficial for sleep, but I'm not taking it late in the day.

I definitely don't want to stop the flush. After that first unpleasant 150mg dose with no exercise, it's actually quite pleasant and seems to give an intensity boost during exercise.

As far as histamine...who knows? I experienced no flushing at the smaller doses so not sure I have high histamine. But I am still harboring some old and likely toxic adipose. Perhaps the flush has to do with inflammation in response to the release of stored toxins. I dunno. Guess we'll see.
 
It is supposed to help sleep for most people. I took my 100mg yesterday before the gym and I was red faced and my arms very much also. Hoping this works for you. Good luck and please keep me posted.
 
So I stopped the niacin today. I ramped up to about 2000mg/day. Over the last week it seems to be making me retain water, and my mood isn't great. Some other things could account for this, but niacin is the biggest thing that's changed. Plus it's hard on my routine to have to work up a sweat every single day, and I haven't been able to get situated to set up my portable FIR sauna. I'm also wondering if the extra stress from the extra exercise is driving some increased cortisol, but that could be due to other things like too much intermittent fasting. We'll see. The water retention is quite annoying, and typically I don't gain weight or retain water if I fast a bit too much. Backing off fasting for a few days usually resolves the symptoms which hasnt happened this time
 
It might not be for you, but you seemed to ramp up very quickly. I don't think I ever took more than 600mg niacin per day and usually only about 50mg right before the exercise. I'm focusing more on the anti-inflamatory aspect at the moment. Trying to take a small dose of curcumin with meals. Still working with the Hesperidin also.

During the 6-7 weeks I was working out about 4 times per week taking the niacin before, also more often taking ibuprofen after waking in the middle of the night (trying to improve REM sleep), my diet was better almost complete eliminated dairy and leaning more toward paleo and sleeping in since it was the summer and did not have to wake up early to get kids ready for school. Was doing great until about the 3rd day of summer beach vacation in Florida. I assumed my downfall had something to do with the sun exposure (vitamin D, Nitric Oxide, or several other possibilities). Still had a few weeks after we got home to sleep in but that wasn't helping. I lost my remission at that point.
 
@sregan, I'm sorry you lost your remission. I hope you can get it back.

I'm not doing so great right now, either. I'm not entirely convinced niacin isn't the culprit. In my case, in addition to ramping up fast, I think it may have lowered cholesterol production or whatever it does to cholesterol too much, thus affecting my hormone production. Say this because my hormones seem much, much more out of whack than usual, particularly my ADH. After that couple nights where I slept for four solid hours without awakening, things deteriorated. I have been getting up to pee like once per hour all night long. And this has been going on for almost a week. Usually I get the constant 1x/hour peeing only a couple days per month, then go back to my "normal" 3-4x/per night. :rolleyes: Every hormonal symptom I get has manifested in the last week and not gone away. Weight gain and water retention still hanging around, uterine fibroids acting up, etc.


So, no more niacin for me. Maybe I made up a deficiency or it was simply of limited benefit to what ails me, and once that threshold was reached, it became counterproductive. Maybe that happened for you, too...?
 
Thank you but don't be sorry. It's given me hope that total remission is possible and possibly close by. I just need to figure it out. But hopefully the set or variables is much smaller since I have a good idea of what I was and wasn't taking/doing during that time....

There is always the possibility that taking so much niacin caused a deficiency of something else. That is a concern of mine whenever I might take a larger than normal quantity of any one thing I look at the co-factors and see what I might also deplete. For me getting up to pee more during the night seems to point to inflammation. If the niacin is pulling toxins out of the fat cells, as advertised, then you should experience a lot of inflammation unless you are doing things to catch(charcoal/bentonite)/expel (sauna) the toxins.

Again I never got too high on the niacin dose. About 600mg on an occasional say but mostly about 50mg just before my workout. The exercise and that dose did good things for me. I'm still working with my current protocol. Having small successes as I remember more of those weeks and what I was and wasn't doing.
 
@sregan, I think I figured out what the problem was with niacin, at least for me and my foolishly big doses. Which, thankfully, I didn't take for very long.

Anyway, in a word: thyroid. Niacin is known to suppresses thyroid production, at least in big doses. This explains everything perfectly for me: suddenly acute problems with my fibroids (which are linked to hypothyroid which I was for decades), suddenly being chilly a majority of the time (which should have been an eye-opening clue for me to hypothyroid but I can be incredibly obtuse sometimes), minor weight gain and sudden weight plateau, AND...polyuria.

It all makes perfect sense now.

Now I just have to back out it. I'm digging out my bottle of Iodoral and taking internally again for a while, and am going to up the raw thyroid supp I take daily. Hopefully I can overcome this soon.

Glad you're doing a bit better, too. :thumbsup:
 
Awesome, glad you figured that out. I'm pondering if I need to go back on DQ supps. Wondering if that's what helped me although once I stopped I didn't feel like it did. Not until I ramped up on B3. But also wondering (and wondered at the time) if since B3 binds to methyl donors that during taking the high mfolate and DQ supps I was depleting my B3. Seems logical if we use B3 to stop/slow methylation that boosting methylation could use up more B3. I may have thyroid issues also. I haven taken thyroid boosting supps in the past which usually make me feel pretty good but seem to wipe out my adrenals pretty quickly. Nothing is ever easy is it? :(
 
Nope, sadly, never easy.

Since my little experience with niacin I've been wondering what the real connection is between methylation and niacin. In my case, though, niacin still seems to be in the "avoid regular usage" list, although it is nice to know it won't bring on the donut hole symptoms any more with a reasonable one-time small dose. It does seem I can get pretty much all the B3 I need from food, which isn't the case with methylfolate and the B12s.

I can't live without the DQ. I'm resigned to the fact that I'll probably take at least a small dose of all of them daily for the rest of my life. I'd like to live without, but IMO it's not worth taking the chance of going in the toilet again if I try to stop.

Good news is I don't think it has to be prohibitively expensive. If we get stable and relatively healthy, a small but regular dose should be enough to keep us that way. Just my speculation--can't prove it--but that's what I believe right now.
 
I'm starting back with a small dose of the DQ now. Having some startup anxiety and other symptoms. Been wondering if my stint with high dose DQ supps cleaned out a bunch of toxic junk from my system. It's possible I didn't feel better until I started taking the B3 in a higher dose and possibly slowed methylation way down and thus alleviating the symptoms I get when either normal methylating or advanced methylating. I think I might be an overmethylator possibly (not sure if that makes sense with my 2 MTRR++ and single MTR+/-) and the methylation (or by product of) causes me anxiety and other symptoms. Slowing that down with B3 would alieviate those symptoms BUT allow toxins to build up at the same time (if that's a valid assumption).

So wondering if it's gonna be up to each of us to decide what level of DQ supplements to take if we must have them to clean our systems of the constant barrage of toxins from Food, Air, Water, radio waves? who knows what else... I wrote a post on the allowable levels of Glyphosate (Roundup) being raised twice because the GMO food we are all eating is requiring more (not less as promised) chemicals. Glyphosate which has just been deemed "Probably carcinageic" and is to be outlawed by California as cancer causing is in everything (non organic) we eat basically. And in greater and greater amounts, thus the need for advance detoxification in this day.

If you can crank your DQ supps way up you'll need to find a way to handle the excretion of the methylation process. Since this is a stage 2 (not stage 1) liver process the output shouldn't be as awful. But I think if we can figure out how to bind the waste product we will be way ahead of the game.

I wrote before about taking Bile and Bile helpers (Artichoke) to keep your body from recycling bile through enterohepatic recirculaiton. Other things might be taken to be helpful to remove waste products.
 
Honestly, what I experienced all along with the DQ felt pretty much like detox, at least until I stabilized. I think there's a big detox component to it, although many will scoff at the idea. Thankfully I'm through the detox phase with DQ, though. I was trying niacin to see if there was anything else it could "mop up" while stuff was coming out of my fat cells during weight loss.

Care to explicate a little more about the bile? Is that in one of your other blog posts? That sounds really intriguing, esp. given my digestive problems in the past (leaky gut, low stomach acid, etc.) and the recent gall bladder attacks due to stones from weight loss.
 

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