Why Vitamin Pills Don’t Work, and May Be Bad for You

[antares4141]

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why-vitamin-pills-don-t-work-and-may-be-bad-for-you

 

[geraldt52]

No surprise there. Manufacturers of supplements avoid trials for a reason...or maybe they do them and just don't publish negative results. It would be bad enough if supplements were just a waste of money, but they can be sneakily harmful.

 

[percyval577]

It´s all about how to apply them. If you just throw them in it even may be bad, I imagine.

(And even if they work - as for me some of them do very thanksfully - there might be side effects.)


I totaly agree with the critic on praise of antioxidant properties. It´s simplicistic thinking that there simply would pop up a danger and it could be removed like some dirt. Much more likely is that everythink has gotten its utilisation, function, and its place.

 

[pamojja]

I don't understand why anyone could put any credence in a simple BBC article, as almost all news-outlets generate income from pharmaceutical advertisement. And not look at the actual research itself.

In my case I simply had nothing more to loose, finding conventional medicine only pushing very risky and ineffective invasive treatments. Though I ended up taking more supplements than ever wanting too (beside diet and life-style changes), fighting by conventional medicine considered non-reversible diseases (PAD, COPD, T2D) practically I did experience remissions. Most remarkable from a 60% walking disabilty with all those 'harmful' supplements.

One has to put it all into perspective. In my case nutrients at mega-doses*) have been lifesaving. Of course with ME/CFS with sensitivities even to sounds, light, smells and natural foods, also supplements have serious dangers, which has to be accomodated by proceeding very carefully.

The convention of combinations of pharmaceutical prescriptions with no hope on remission but bad side-effects, covered up with even more pharmaceuticals - as practiced in the majority of the ageing population - isn't an reasonable option to me at all.

The risk from supplements by exposure being about 1 death in a million, compared to 123125 in a million with deathly pharmaceutical adverse drug reaction is just so disgusting. 351320 deaths from medical injuries in hospitals even worse.

Choose wisely. Don't believe media sponsored by one of the largest industries, having to loose everything.



*) 36g of water-soluble vitamins, 1g of fat-soluble vitamins, 14g of fatty-acids, 9g of minerals, 37g of amino-acids and another 28g of plant-extracts and other purified nutrients (powdered not counted) = 125g per day of supplements (~250 distinct supplements) in average for the last 11 years. And no adverse side-effects at all, but unexpected additional beneficial effects. Like loosing the abilty to get sun-burned.

 

[percyval577]

Supplements are like screws in a motor.

If you would need 5 (or was it 4, I am not at home to reconfirm it) out of 20, there are 4548 possible combinations.
If the sequence in which the supps are taken in would be important there are 116.280 possibilities.

4548 and 116.280, respectively!!!

This is an enormous chance, who on earth has tested such possiblities in illnesses? Nobody.

And it will hardly be possible soon enough, but I with my brain fog and pain, I dare to say that I may have found the combo, partly with sequence, and an avidance (maybe most important though).

 

[pamojja]

Supplements are like screws in a motor.

Supplements are nothing than food-components the human is used and addapted to metabolize since eons. Other then synthetic pharmaceuticals, around only for a 100 years.

Some tranditional diets still contain up to a 100 different foods, ancestrally up to 200. Each with a multitude of phytochemicals, most not even defined yet. All that millions of possiblities just to be fed.

Fast forward, most on a SAD diet only consume about 10 different plants within a week. With known outcomes.


This study talks about 26,000 distinct, definable biochemicals present in our food:

The unmapped chemical complexity of our diet - The 'dark matter' of nutrition

 

[geraldt52]

Often, PWME who take a supplement, or supplements, experience an improvement or remission of some symptoms, and attribute that improvement to the supplement. Just as often though, PWME who do nothing at all experience improvement or remission in some symptoms. Without double blinding, how do we know that the former isn't actually the latter?

It's worth remembering that Rituxan was a smashing success until subjected to the scrutiny of double blinding, where the arm of the trial on placebo showed greater improvement than the arm on Rituxan. I'm sorry, but without a biomarker that can be monitored, patient reports of improvement are not very compelling to me anymore.

 

[antares4141]

Often, PWME who take a supplement, or supplements, experience an improvement or remission of some symptoms, and attribute that improvement to the supplement. Just as often though, PWME who do nothing at all experience improvement or remission in some symptoms. Without double blinding, how do we know that the former isn't actually the latter?

It's worth remembering that Rituxan was a smashing success until subjected to the scrutiny of double blinding, where the arm of the trial on placebo showed greater improvement than the arm on Rituxan. I'm sorry, but without a biomarker that can be monitored, patient reports of improvement are not very compelling to me anymore.

I've been guilty more times than I can count in attributing this, that, or the other thing to my ups or downs. Other than mold exposure where symptoms are very profound and reproducible, and to some lesser extent things like perfumes which consistently seem to elicit a negative health effect type response. So I agree.

 

[percyval577]

Supplements are nothing than food-components the human is used and addapted to metabolize since eons.

Agreed mainly, but this is not an allegory which makes understandable what you could do with them, or why they work apart from helping with a deficiency.

In fact the body and its pathways is not a strictly closed system, instead its a slightly open and in so far influencable system.



Thank you for this informative article:

This study talks about 26,000 distinct, definable biochemicals present in our food:
The unmapped chemical complexity of our diet - The 'dark matter' of nutrition

The Abstract says:

Our understanding of how diet affects health is limited to 150 key nutritional components that are tracked and catalogued by the United States Department of Agriculture and other national databases. Although this knowledge has been transformative for health sciences, helping unveil the role of calories, sugar, fat, vitamins and other nutritional factors in the emergence of common diseases,

these nutritional components represent only a small fraction of the more than 26,000 distinct, definable biochemicals present in our food—many of which have documented effects on health but remain unquantified in any systematic fashion across different individual foods.

Using new advances such as machine learning, a high-resolution library of these biochemicals could enable the systematic study of the full biochemical spectrum of our diets, opening new avenues for understanding the composition of what we eat, and how it affects health and disease

So it´s 150 common components to choose from, and maybe in a sequence to get any proposed or wished effect.

As I said I am not at home, so can not calculate it, but this is far far far more possiblities than in every lottery is played with. Far far far far more.


I searchd for a combinatory effect of chromium and nickel. So, chromium has been found to help some mood, for rather unknown reason, possibly something with metabolism. Nickel has ben found to block T-type calcium currents, probabaly in different manners in different subunits!

It should be worth to test the stuff not only in a single intake but also in a sequence, say first nickel and later chromium. Combo not tested, just for instance.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

patient reports of improvement are not very compelling to me anymore

Recently, one of the ME support platforms is showing an app for helping us track symptoms....

Its just so totally subjective....I am really lousy at rating my own condition. Wish we had more ways to accurately show- changes in our condition....that are tangible, or measureable.

Does am. heart rate at rest...does that tell us something about our condition? I'm still trying to determine that....

 

[southwestforests]

Thing about the human body and studying what affects which and how much and how so is all those "inter-"s, where pretty near everything interacts with, intersects, is interconnected to, is interdependent on, pretty near everything else to degrees large, small, or variable.

 

[pamojja]

So it´s 150 common components to choose from, and maybe in a sequence to get any proposed or wished effect.

As I said I am not at home, so can not calculate it, but this is far far far more possiblities than in every lottery is played with. Far far far far more.

With all that complexity, one has to consider the most simplest equation: 'who ate more than 30 different plant types per week had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week'

Comparing this with lottery, with only 1 jackpot is completely inappropiate. Food diversity or microbial diversity isn't limited, other than by human stupidity. Wanting one symptom to go away with one agent at a time.

http://ucsdnews.ucsd...ats-in-your-gut

Big data dump from the world’s largest citizen science microbiome project reveals how factors such as diet, antibiotics and mental health status can influence the microbial and molecular makeup of your gut

Emerging trends
All of the data collected by the American Gut Project are publicly available, without participants’ identifying information. This open access approach allows researchers around the world to mine the data for meaningful associations between factors such as diet, exercise, lifestyle, microbial makeup and health. Here are a few observations that have emerged so far:

Diet. The number of plant types in a person’s diet plays a role in the diversity of his or her gut microbiome—the number of different types of bacteria living there. No matter the diet they prescribed to (vegetarian, vegan, etc.), participants who ate more than 30 different plant types per week (41 people) had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week (44 people). The gut samples of these two groups also differed in the types of molecules present.

Antibiotics. The gut microbiomes of American Gut Project participants who reported that they took antibiotics in the past month (139 people) were, as predicted, less diverse than people who reported that they had not taken antibiotics in the last year (117 people). But, paradoxically, people who had taken antibiotics recently had significantly greater diversity in the types of chemicals in their gut samples than those who had not taken antibiotics in the past year.

The participants who ate more than 30 plants per week also had fewer antibiotic resistance genes in their gut microbiomes than people who ate 10 or fewer plants. In other words, the bacteria living in the guts of the plant-lovers had fewer genes that encode the molecular pumps that help the bacteria avoid antibiotics. This study didn’t address why this might be the case, but the researchers think it could be because people who eat fewer plants may instead be eating more meat from antibiotic-treated animals or processed foods with antibiotics added as a preservative, which may favor the survival of antibiotic-resistant bacteria...

While whith pharmaceuticals, which most act as antibiotics - as also glycosphate we eat with food = less gut microbiobal diversity. So in a way more complexity in food (by extension also from supplements, which are nothing than components of food) adds to the complexity in microbiome, which in turn is strongly associated with less health issues. Since a healthy microbiome aids in so many metabolic functions. The more complex food/microbiome = the less complex symptoms, if any all.

So, chromium has been found to help some mood, for rather unknown reason, possibly something with metabolism. Nickel has ben found to block T-type calcium currents, probabaly in different manners in different subunits!

It should be worth to test the stuff not only in a single intake but also in a sequence, say first nickel and later chromium. Combo not tested, just for instance.

In that respect I react totally different to nutrients than you. I don't feel a damn taking loads of supplements in combination, except a very few immetiate beneficial effects (like taking a teaspoon of ascorbic acid ceasing any sneezing-fit from hay-fever right away). All effects are only visible to me first with laboratory lab-testing, and with sufficient time in ceasing of debilitating symptoms. Like the gradual increase of pain-free walking distance, until completely gone. The abrupt ceasing of PEMs. Ceasing of very-painful musclecramps from a Mg-deficiency. Or the most odd: ceasing of angina-like chest pain with CoQ10 doses above 150 mg/d.

Things like mood in general is very well with me to begin with. But my only microbiome test from 2 years ago also showed more diversity than 93% of all tested at that time.


Also all the studies in the original BBC articles finding harm were individual nutrients taken in isolation, since the scientific method tries to exclude too many confounders, therefore bound to create imbalances in other nutrients and health problems. Designed to fail. Nutrients have to be taken in combinations, considering their synergism or antagonism with other nutrients.

 

[percyval577]

With all that complexity, one has to consider the most simplest equation: 'who ate more than 30 different plant types per week had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week'

I referred to the well known 150 components, in expectation that these ones are also the most important ones, indeed, the most other ones should be xenobiotics like flavanoids e.g., which influence the body also, of course (which is the articel about).

Comparing this with lottery, with only 1 jackpot is completely inappropiate.

I don´t want to deny that some ppl got out of ME/CFS even by accident, probabaly involving a huge amount of influences, flavanoids and whatever.

Many ways may lead to Rome - but obviously a pronounced and helpful mix of influences is still unlikly to meet by chance.

Therefore, to say that supplements don´t help, should be hasty (and probabaly is even not reflecting all findings available).

Also all the studies in the original BBC articles finding harm were individual nutrients taken in isolation, since the scientific method tries to exclude too many confounders, therefore bound to create imbalances in other nutrients and health problems. Nutrients have to be taken in combinations, considering their synergism or antagonism with other nutrients.

This tips on an inevitable problem, of course. If you do any pronounced influence on A, you might do an influence on B as well which might be highly unwelcome. I highly agree that one should seek for synergisms, so that one can lessen with one influence (which might get out of work anyway).


For myself it seems like so:

Borrelia and EBV have elevated manganese-actions in my brain, at the expense of actions of other metals, namely, as it seems, zinc, chromium and nickel.

So the main cure seems to be to lessen manganese actions (low manganese intake), and to elevate actions of the other metals - and now it appeared that the simple delivering of them (in cholcolate) isn´t sufficient, instead I take one without another, also adding other needed/synergistic stuff - probably importantly.

Chelation of metals is also helpful, until I have chelated too much. I do it sipwise and in a proposely synergistic action: some little VitC - some little lemon juice - some very little vinegar (acetate).

I think the metal thing is logical enough, and it works, not too fast though. Maybe I will experience a miracle when I have ordered a proper nickel supplement? Though I think the whole thing to be a build up of synaptical structures, it should take time anyhow.

 

[percyval577]

With all that complexity, one has to consider the most simplest equation: 'who ate more than 30 different plant types per week had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week'

Thank you for the input, I will try ro keep it in mind!

 

[antares4141]

Recently, one of the ME support platforms is showing an app for helping us track symptoms....

Its just so totally subjective....I am really lousy at rating my own condition. Wish we had more ways to accurately show- changes in our condition....that are tangible, or measureable.

Does am. heart rate at rest...does that tell us something about our condition? I'm still trying to determine that....

It would be nice if the app also collected and collated statistics in a central location from other users of the app to look for a pattern of anomalies for any given illness. Like CFS, or lyme, or lupus.

Also as much hardware as you can throw at it. BP measuring devices, oxygen measuring devices, glucose, come to mind. Brain waves, temperature, metabolic rate, breathing, anything else that could relatively easily be measured and recorded. Realtime as opposed to sporadic or at intervals. So you could wear it at night and during down time.

Developers are aware of the need, how far they have come along I don't know.

As far as heart rate goes mine is always high and my BP has always been low. Readings like 90 bpm and 85 over 60 used to not be all that uncommon for me. And they used to coincide with symptoms. Sometimes as low as 85 over 55. IE low bp was usually when I was bed bound. High heart rate is relatively consistent across the board.

I probably changed this somewhat because after I quit eating gluten in 2011 I was on this diet that included a lot of fried potato's. It made my cholesterol jump through the roof and all my viens became visible in my forearms.

Before this whenever I had blood drawn they could never hit my vein, now they have no problem. Now my bp is closer to 100, 110 over 70.