Supplements to augment fasting

[Tunguska]

@MCRobbie I don't purport to have deep knowledge about long-term fasting. I'm glad it's had some experimental value for you so far. I've certainly read anecdotes of people with issues similar to mine reporting improvement on 30-day fasts.

However I have their issues plus many others. The limiting factor for me, most obvious, is protein breakdown and non-synthesis leading to collagen degradation. It's compounded by muscle wasting because muscles reinforce the joints. It's not purely about catabolism either, but synthesis to offset wear and tear and previous damage. I also don't build muscle quickly (but with enough time is possible). This all makes me weary of long fasts by default. Even R-ALA has some risks.

With a 3-5 day fast collagen synthesis and muscle should only be disrupted for a week or bit over, which is an acceptable risk if it brings real benefits in other areas. But a whole month?

The other concerns such as autophagy cessation and gut walls are less alarming, though I can't ignore reports of permanent degradation after 10-14-day fasts.

Now this statement is where I'm alienated: "That's what its there for and the body will only start to breakdown muscle and organ tissue when those fat reserves have been completely exhausted". As far as I know ketones can only feed the brain a certain percentage of its energy requirements, so necessarily there'll be protein breakdown for gluconeogenesis. For one. That's not taking into account the fat-burning limitations some of us have, I think was discussed in your thread, and lack of large muscle reserves to begin with. Again I'm no expert but I'm sure I've heard other experts see it differently.

 

[Tunguska]

@MCRobbie I didn't relate that to your main point, lost train of thought. What I mean is, given my limitations the long fasts still don't seem like an option (with concern somewhat increased by experiences posted). So the point of this thread becomes trying to see if shorter fasts are worth it and how to make the best of them, specially with supplements since I haven't seen that discussed very much. What if you could produce benefits of longer fasts in less time?

That linked research may be immature but it did refer to a human clinical trial on cancer patients.

 

[MCRobbie]

Hi Tunguska, I apologize if I missed where you mentioned some of your health issues which could make a long fast challenging, clearly you have some form of collagen disorder on second reading. And I apologize too if my tone sounded critical to your plan for shorter fasts. If I came off that way I didnt mean to. I think fasting has a lot of potential to produce health benefits both short and long term fasting so Im all for people trying fasts of any length.

My point is that there is a long history of long term fasting, if one considers the fasting doctors of the 20th century who fasted tens of thousands of people, Dr Fuhrman who has more recently fasted people (he did a 46 day fast to cure a difficult foot injury), the True North Clinic in California who have fasted a few thousand, the long history of fasting of all lengths in religious traditions and communities going back a few thousands years, countless you tube videos from long fasters exclaiming how well they feel during and after a long fast, The Tanglewood Fasting Retreat center in Costa Rica who have fasted a couple thousand by now with countless videos of successful long fasters............the point, there is just a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that long term fasts are safe but this anecdotal evidence gets brushed aside and not considered in favor of a few clinical studies on rodents and a couple on people.

One thing all of the fasting doctors of the past and True North today and Fuhrman today claim is that some of the most successful fasters are the ones who are the most ill. They all at some point make this statement in their writings. Many people come to fasting as you suggested you might be coming to it, as a last resort, when they are very ill and have felt they exhausted all other options. Its the manner in which I came to decide to fast as well.

But all of these fasting experiences aren't written up in one book or one paper for someone to read. You have to go through the literature to read these stories but they are numerous, of people very sick from one disease state or another, deciding to fast and obtaining striking benefit, and not dying from fasting as so many people think they do or would.

I myself cannot give you the exact physiological proportions of exactly how much muscle tissue is used for the purposes of gluconeogenesis to feed the brain. If you read the literature I think you would conclude ..........people are not losing muscle tissue, or not much. This is claimed over and over and over again, and by youtube video fasters. But you have to do the reading and the watching to become convinced of it.

Im not trying to convince you to do a thirty day fast. Im only saying this mountain of anecdotal evidence for the safety and health benefits of longer fasts gets such short thrift over say a 24 hour fasting study on rodents.

And theres always this option too which for some reason people never seem to consider oddly and that is..........start a fast and...........see how it goes........and if you get to day seven and realize youre not dying, keep going, and if you get to day 14 and youre feeling fine, keep going, if you want to. Experiment by taking it one day at a time and see how far you get if a person has some interest in a longer fast.

Can short fasts have the same benefits of a long fast? I have no idea and again Im all for experimenting with fasts of every length. I do know this however, there are thousands of stories of people improving their health dramatically through long term fasting. I did not find similar evidence for short term fasting.

Wish you great success in your fasting experiment be it one day or forty!

 

[MCRobbie]

And I feel the need to add this though I should be able to go without saying it.........I realize we as a group here on PR are a very sick lot. I am very ill. Everyone is different, many people will respond differently to fasting of any length.

There is a long history of very ill people fasting successfully and safely. But not ME/CFS sufferers. So its impossible to know what would happen if all of a sudden 1000 ME/CFS sufferers attempted to fast for 20 days. I think they would respond better than likely others think they would. But I cant prove it because its never been done.

 

[Wayne]

@Tunguska

@MCRobbie, I've appreciated your comments about fasting, most of which fall in line with my own thinking. I too hope to undertake more fasting in the future, but it will likely be a more modified approach (partial fasting) than a lengthy water or juice fast.

An Interesting Tidbit: When I was doing a lot research on fasting many years back, I ran across an old book written by a chiropractor back in the 1950s. He routinely put his patients on long water fasts to help with some very major back problems. He had before and after pictures (X-rays) in this book, that showed almost unbelievable changes in the spine after fasts of 14-21 days.

I remember seeing pictures of extreme curvature of the spine (scoliosis) becoming almost totally aligned after some of these fasts. Who would have thought that fasting could produce these kinds of results? I have a theory about this, though it may sound a bit esoteric for some.

My Own Theory: I heard (read) many years ago that a perfect "etheric blueprint" is immediately formed at the moment of conception. This blueprint is with us through gestation and afterwards as we go through life, always working to bring our bodies back into an alignment of health.

But the connection between this blueprint and our bodies can become weakened over time because of injury, infections, etc. I tend to think that when we fast, we reconnect to this blueprint in a more meaningful way--and that the degree to which we can reconnect is closely correlated to the degree to which we can shift our state of health. -- I also tend to think creative visualizations during fasting are helpful to the healing process.

 

[Valentijn]

I cant spend a week linking you to all the references which I read claiming long term fasts lead to often profound increase in digestive health not disease, health which is dramatic and obvious to the recipient, but I can tell you that the accounts of people receiving dramatic increases in digestive health from long term fasting is all over the place in the literature.

How about just providing a few links to the research papers which you feel provides the strongest support of your claims?

This request was made on your previous fasting thread, but you were never able to do so. Vaguely referring to supposedly supportive research is not persuasive, if we cannot examine at least some of it ourselves. Nor would it be helpful to again instruct everyone else to find the papers ourselves, which you say support your claims.

 

[MCRobbie]

I wasn't referring to RESEARCH papers (in this thread) and made that clear in my comments. I PM'ed Mij and gave her some links and an explanation for the comments I made in my previous thread, which is what I said to her I would do.

 

[MCRobbie]

Interesting @Wayne.

Do you remember the name of the book? Id be interested in reading it.

Edit: Love the "etheric" blueprint idea @Wayne and Im sorry I didn't acknowledge it in my first response. And your idea that fasting (and other protocols) if they help us to heal its because they are helping us reconnect with this original blue print is a great one.

Ive had my own theory about fasting which is similar to yours I think which is that a fast might gently force the body to return all bodily systems back to their most basic and essential functions. That it might act as a reminder to bodily systems what their most essential functions are and allow these systems to reset. I think this is what may be happening in cases where long fasts have had supposed dramatic effects in many of these anecdotal success stories.

 

[Mij]

@MCRobbie the fast was avoiding food for 12-18hrs periods. This is a short term fast and doable. I've done this myself years ago and have experienced an energy boost from it, but whether it's beneficial long term I don't know.

http://www.drcourtneycraig.com/blog/intermittentfasting

Eating a high fat diet (good fats and meat) was more helpful to me in the end.

 

[MCRobbie]

Hi @Mij, Yes as I explained in my PM to there are not studies on the effects of long term fasting on mitochondrial function that I am aware of and I made a mistake in my previous thread by suggesting there were.

Theres a lot of anecdotal evidence on long term fastings benefits in the books on fasting by Dr Fuhrman, Herbert Shelton, Upton Sinclair, Stephen Buhner, There are many videos on Youtube of people discussing the benefits they felt they received from long term fasting. If a person does not feel this is persuasive 'evidence' and they need a clinical research paper for them to feel satisfied well then, that is a persons right.

Heres a paper on Blood Pressure Reduction (not mitochondrial improvement which is what you were originally interested in) from longer fasting. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11416824

 

[Mij]

@MCRobbie most of us have problems with low BP.

 

[MCRobbie]

I know @Mij. I have problems with low BP (if you are referring to Orthostatic Hypotension/Intolerance), myself.

 

[Valentijn]

Her starting weight was 200 lbs and as you can see at the end of the video she is completely emaciated, breathtakingly so. She has post fast videos of herself so many months after her fasts where she claims no ill effects from her fasting experiment.

Horrific - she looks like something out of a horror movie at the end, or concentration camp survivor.

 

[helperofearth123]

I couldn't eat anything for 3 weeks when my appendix exploded and I had a huge temporary improvement in ME/CFS after that, cause remains unknown (was over 2 years ago now). The improvement lasted about 6 weeks. I tried fasting again some months later to 'recreate the conditions' but only managed to keep going for about 3 days. I felt a tiny improvement in brain fog for a day or two afterwards, but it wasn't worth the aweful 3 days of starvation. The infectious disease professor who diagnosed me with CFS said I probably felt better after my gangrenous appendix due to the body releasing steroids from not eating for so long.

 

[MCRobbie]

Interesting @Matthew Jones. I guarantee you weren't starving while not eating for three days. You were fasting but not starving. Starving is the state in which a person has exhausted most fat reserves and the body starts breaking down muscle and organ tissue.

 

[MCRobbie]

@Tunguska I thought you would find this interesting. I have not read Ancel Keys' work on Starvation "The Biology of Human Starvation", but I plan on reading parts of it as some point. Here is a breakdown of tissue loss at death by starvation and I think Ancel Keys got these numbers from WW2 Concentration Camp victims (sorry for the difficult reference) though I am trying to verify and need to read the original source.

One can see that when a person loses 97% of all the fat on the body there is only a 3% loss of nerve brain and heart tissue. So at some point when fat loss reaches a very high percentage your body does start breaking down muscle and organ tissue. At what percentage this begins is not clear.

There is a quote from his book which I cannot paste where he says starvation can 'start' at around 40% of weight loss though this will vary by person. In my case, at a weight of 147, I would have to get down to a weight of about 85 lbs before entering into that danger zone where starvation would start to ensue. I never intend on fasting down to a weight of 85 lbs.



Tissue Losses at Death By Starvation*
Fat 97%
Muscles 31
Blood 27
Liver 54
Spleen 67
Pancreas 17
Skin 21
Intestines 18
Kidneys 26
Lungs 18
Testes 40
Heart 3
Brain and Spinal Cord 3
Nerves 3
Bone 14
* From Keys, Ancel, Joseph Brozek , Austin Henchel, Olaf Mickelson and Henry L. Taylor, (1950) The Biology of Human Starvation. Two Vols. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.

 

[Wayne]

@Tunguska

A few more thoughts on supplements to consider while fasting. I think (inexpensive) malic acid capsules are very good to take. Malic acid, in the form of apple juice and/or apples is often recommended during a liver/gallbladder flush, as it softens and dissolves gall stones (and liver stones).

Another supplement to consider is bentonite clay. A lot of toxicity, including dangerous heavy metals, can be released from its storage in our body's fat during a fast, and create all kinds of problems. Bentonite clay asorbs/adsorbs a lot of this toxicity, and take a tremendous burden off the detoxification system--which for many pwCFS is already compromised.

Excess toxicity can also deplete B12 levels in the body, so this is another supplement that is worth consideration.

Getting back to liver/gall bladder function. The amino acids taurine and glycine apparently have the ability to thin the viscosity of bile. This helps it flow much better, and could be important during a fast as the liver tries to dump greater than normal amounts of toxicity by excreting it into the normal bile flow out of the liver.
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Last suggestion: Dry brush massaging the skin can increase lymphatic flow, and provide important support for the detoxification system. Juices from foods like beets and other red colored foods are known for the ability to assist both the liver and lymphatic system drainage.

 

[MCRobbie]

So the point of this thread becomes trying to see if shorter fasts are worth it and how to make the best of them, specially with supplements since I haven't seen that discussed very much.

Tunguska, Waynes latest comment was a reminder to me that none of my comments addressed your main question and I just want to apologize publicly for that. My ME/CFS is impacting my decision making and my perceptions and Im afraid I was in a cloud of fog and not able to 'listen' to what you and others were saying. I really am sorry.

I deleted two videos of a woman who fasted for an extreme length of time because they werent relevant and posed and even greater distraction to the main intent of this thread. @Valentijn last comment is in reference to one of them

Wish you well in devising and implementing your own fasting experiment and hope it has a positive affect overall. Best of luck with it.

 

[Tunguska]

@MCRobbie Thanks for saying. I'm personally not bothered by threads finding lives of their own. I don't see much to change that long fasts appear inappropriate for someone like me with these problems in this timeframe, so I'm just not motivated to discuss it further.

@Matthew Jones Thanks. (always had an irrational fear of exploding appendixes) It makes me wonder what can be done to help improvements stick, or if there are any are they just too subtle, compared to strong temporary neurotransmitter/hormone effects.

@Wayne Malic acid would be worth trying, good catch. I was planning to add white vinegar/acetic acid which is in that list of AMPK activators and other reasons, so why not malic (have capsules I never finished).

The others are food for thought but some sound more likely to disrupt a fast, though they're definitely things to bulk up on beforehand and afterward. Glycine especially, and B12. Bentonite clay I've never tried.

 

[Tunguska]

For the record, I did this a few times since, 3 days fasting with green tea pills and ALA, alone and together. There were gut improvements and better sensitivity to folate afterward, but altogether it wasn't worth the stress and not enough to be gambling on subtle long-term benefits. Green tea has got to be the best fasting-adherence aid. ALA seemed to do the opposite and precipitate fasting stress, which I figure is part of the sought-after effect for purpose of this thread, though no major unexpected magical benefits. Vinegar was too hard on the stomach and I forgot malic acid again.

If things manage to go further downhill and have even less to lose I'll probably give 5-10 days a shot, but no plans. On the 'long' term I'm switching to the protein cycling diet instead, which is magnitudes easier with theoretically part of the same benefits. Keeping ALA around for intermittent fasting but have been avoiding that.