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Zinc + B6 (and few others), was it overmethylation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Termo, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Termo

    Termo

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    Hi,
    Its my first post in this forum and I wish to thanks all the people who contribute with this community to help and sustain each other.

    My experience is as follows:

    I've experienced many years of wheat intolerance and maybe gluten. During my adolescence I felt weak, without much energy, and brain fogged. Now I'm 29 and things are going better. I switched to an healthy diet, gluten free, only vegetables, legumes, rice and mostly eggs and fish, and my skin symptoms, such dermatitis, have recessed a lot. I've gained more and more energy in 2 years, but with drawbacks and a lot of up and down.
    Carboydrates and sugars expecially have been a pain to handle, I've suffered from sugar cravings, and probably my insulin response was a bit messy, but now I can control that with a low carbo diet.

    Moreover I've tried to address some cognitive impairments with a lot of supplements these years, expecially memory and motivational issues.
    Lately I find to be very low in zinc, I suppose because some intestinal infiammation or malabsorptions. This observation started with my fingers, because the "half moon", the white part at the base of the nails made of zinc, was completely absent. I could add that I had a lot of costipation in the past, wich now I address almost completely with red salts, wich have some clay in it.

    Long story short, I started to take Zinc bisglycinate (44 - 66 mg) togheter with p5p (100mg) , and sometimes Nac and Milk thistle. My metabolism started to respond very well immeadiately after the first dose of zinc . In 2 days my motivation and my energy was raised to extreme level, I was almost overstimolated, I started to sleep only 7 hours or less at night and my thougts were racing and I had some problems to fall asleep too. I experienced a peculiar sensation in my head, like a pulsation or some pressure in the veins, that came up every time I took my zinc dose.

    I've been taking even high doses of vitamin C, like 3g per day, which its used for copper toxicity, and a lot of carrot juice for the vitamin A.

    My memory increased a lot too, and I feel like I've came back to life, emotionally more involved in everything I did. But this sort of magic lasted for about two weeks, and progressively, the symptoms started to be more subtle, and the mind racing a little difficult to handle, with no more cognitive improvement, so I've started to cut out the doses to the point, after two months, that I've stopped to take all the supplements.

    I've read a lot about Pyroluria, Copper toxicity and Methylation, but still I've not found a reason for this acute reaction wich now seems almost absent. Maybe I must address some other pathways? I've started even to feel a few more symtoms of cold hands and feet, which I had before taking any supplement but during the first period of regimen seemed to recess after every meal. I've started taking also some copper, because it could have been depleted during my zinc regimen, and could be that a tiny bit of the first zinc effect is back after a few days under this regimen. (30 mg of zinc and 2.5 mg of copper)

    Maybe someone can guess something about my experience? Or more specifically, suggest me some exams to take to try to sort out the causes (which could be mineral imbalance, thyroid or adrenal issues or metabolic deficiencies). Unfortunately I live in Italy, and I dont know if there any specific terapies that I can try to work it out.

    Thanks a lot in advance!
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hello Termo--

    For what it's worth, I have had very strong reactions from taking zinc. This baffled me initially, because I knew from hair analysis that my zinc was much too low. So I bought some food based zinc (Mega Food) and started with just 1/2 a tablet--roughly 12 mg. The first couple days I took it, the zinc made me calm and relaxed, which relieved that wired feeling that is one of my worst symptoms. But then on the third day I began to feel very anxious and overstimulated. I stopped the zinc for a couple days, and then cut the dose to 1/4 tab the following day, but the anxious overstimulation returned, so I stopped the zinc completely for quite a long time. I have tried it out a few more times down the road, but have run into the same problems. At this point I don't take it at all.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the zinc is displacing my very high copper, and when the copper gets released into my system it causes the overstimulation symptoms. It would make sense that in time, as the copper level goes down and zinc comes up, that everything should balance out... but unfortunately getting from here to there is really much too anxiety producing. I have not figured out how to manage that, other than to continue working with my methylation issues. MAybe in time, the zinc will be tolerated better, once the methylation blocks are cleared.... that's just a guess.

    As for milk thistle, which you also mentioned taking, I know from my TCM practitioner that that can be a problem for people with CFS/MCS. It's supposedly good for the liver, but in my case it makes my liver very agitated. I find the NAC to be a much better choice. Also, red clover tea has been helpful for me in clearing toxins from my system.

    I think it would be a good idea to get a hair mineral test and see where your levels of copper and zinc are at before taking copper. You could be adding to the problem without knowing it.
  3. Termo

    Termo

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    Thanks a lot Dreambirdie for the advice, you're right about the copper, I will try to perform the test when it will be possible.

    Your experience was similar in some aspects, but what in definitive I'm trying to obtain, is the same chemical balance which I was experiencing during that period. I think that copper toxicity could be one of the explanations, and probably some thyroid and adrenal issues.

    I'm considering to take some adrenal support supplements (grandular), TMG to boost methylation, digestive enzymes, and selenium for gut repairing.

    Any other suggestions?
  4. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Go slowly, and add just one thing at a time.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That's a pretty high dose of zinc and P5P. P5P is different than the B6 they put in B100 b-complexes. It's much stronger. The anxiety and overstimulation could be from the P5P, but I don't know all the supplements you're taking. NAC and Milk Thistle are both chelators so they can mobilize metals. Vitamin C can also be a chelator in high doses. I'm not sure if this is just with ascorbic acid or all types of vitamin C. If your problem is metal toxicity that could also be causing you might want to look into chelation and binders, but your symptoms could be from a lot of different things and you don't want to jump to conclusions. Also, 2.5 mg of copper is a lot if you don't have a copper deficiency. I agree with Dreambirdie, go slowly and try to get some tests done before self-diagnosing and supplementing. Again, I don't know if metals is your problem or not, but methylation can also cause a lot of toxic metals to be released so be sure to read up on that. Even if you don't have a problem with metals, methylation can still cause overstimulation. P5P is involved in methylation so be careful with how many supplements you add. I read this somewhere about Zinc, but I don't know if it's what's going on in your case.
  6. Termo

    Termo

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    Thanks Lotus, thats quite interesting, and both of you are right, I'm just experimenting a little too much with my body.
    The fact is that I'm disappointed by the medical assistence here, so I'm trying to sort out some good ways before getting know my family doctor what Its working best for me.

    Most importantly, I would like to stress out the improvement in the cognitive abilities that I've experienced, expecially memory and emotional, and I ask you if that could be related to a general improvement in neurotransmitter production caused by methylation, or maybe some overactive glands caused by the copper elimination.

    I think the first test I will do will be a Hair Mineral Analysis.

    Thanks a lot for your time
  7. Research 1st

    Research 1st

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    For people who want to measure the Zinc level but cannot/don't want to have a blood test, you can also do a 24hr urine Zinc test that is accepted by physicians as being indicative of zinc deficiency. Definitely worth doing as a stop gap, if you have repeated infections with ME and cannot get access to specialist immunology tests like NK function or IgG subclasses.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I tend to do a lot of self-diagnosis for myself and also go overboard on supplementation too. It is important to know what's going on though. With adrenals you could have high cortisol or low cortisol or a combination of low and high. Some supplements raise cortisol while others lower it. I don't know too much about adrenal gladulars, but I'd be careful with those.

    The improvement in your cognitive abilities and overstimulation are most likely from the P5P. Maybe you can lower the dose and/or split up the dosages throughout the day. Are you taking other cofactors for methylation too? Because the more things you take the more synergy there is so you want to be careful with adding too much at once. Also, it might take a few days for the effects to build up and then if you lower the dose it might take a few days for the effects to diminish.
  9. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I am sorry I cannot carefully consider all the emails on this tpic because my eye is bothering me so much I can barely stand to use it (it is very dry for some reason - apparently to do with lack of humidity).

    I wanted to say that zinc is like a dial to turn up your thyroid. And racing thoughts are what you get when you turn your thyroid up too much. It may be that you do not need that much zinc (for instance if you do not use it up fast such as via allergies or injuries - like maybe a burn - then what makes you think you need such a high dose?) or it may be that you are not taking enough of other supplements the thyroid needs if it is to work harder. Do you have enough selenium? iodine? mB12? (I don't think this is much likely to affect the thyroid as the thyroid seems to get first crack at any available mB12). tyrosine? And also the thyroid needs copper (to turn off!).
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been taking Zinc partially because I thought it was supposed to be calming, but you're saying this could have the opposite effect with some people? I've been taking 30 mg. Could that cause problems?
  11. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I do not know the details, but in case a dry eye is troubling you on a regular basis: freshly broken or grinded flaxseed helps against dry eyes. Grind it in such a way it remains a bit rough, you don't want to get flour, because then it'll lose its efficacy. Take one large glass of water as well, if not you'll get constipation.
    I am wearing contact lenses during the night, and I had difficulty getting them out the next morning because my eyes were simply too dry. Since I am taking grinded flaxseed I have no problems.
    Great for omega 3 too.

    Dry eyes can be caused by hormones btw.
  12. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I think 30mg is a reasonable dose but it depends on you. I, personally, do not eat a lot of protein so it does not turn up my thyroid that much unless I take tyrosine and even then it only makes me hot. When I was taking iodine that alone turned up my thyroid so much it caused racing thoughts, palpitations, etc...to the point of thyroid storm symptoms (including buzzing in the brain like an angry hornet's nest). My labs showed HYPOthyroid and I asked Life Extension how the heck that could be since I was taking iodo9ral and they said THAT WAS THE REASON. In fact through careful lab taking I discovered it drove me HYPER until I ran out of tyrosine and then I became HYPO (and yet I had the symptoms of both hyper and hypo). I was diagnosed borderline low copper and according to ithyroid.com copper is needed to turn off the thyroid. To this day I cannot tolerate much iodine. I think what happens depends on what you have available to make thyroid hormones...I am generally tyrosine limitted. But if I get extra iodine I apparently cannot stop making thyroid hormone and if I run out of ingredients I make partial thyroid hormone (which feels worse).

    If you have hyperthyroid you can manage it by taking the nutrients that the thyroid needs in large amount (as it will be RACING through them) like carnitine. I mean if you need to manage it until you fix it for steering a runaway train is only a temporary solution until you can apply the brakes. You can look up hyperthyrodi at www.lef.org . Carnitine is heavily used by the thyroid but there may be a few other things as well.

    I only run into trouble with iodine because I use up 75-150mg of zinc each and every day I have an allergy or cold. So it's not easy for me to o.d. on zinc.

    Triff
  13. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Thankx Xara. That was the first time I had that problem but I am afraid it will become a problem more and more as time goes on. I used to have no allergy when exposed to dry air and now I have a growing list of symptoms caused by it. I read that allergic rhinitis turns into asthma as one ages so it is a worry. I will try the flax. Thanks!

    Trif
  14. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I think it is prolly ok if you also take some copper. idk the dose of copper. I believe that if you are over 50 a 5mg dose is safe (because estrogen helps you absorb copper). I think same goes for men over 70 (I am guessing testosterone also helps absorb copper because young men are more likely hi than lo copper and every copper deficient man I have encountered has been elderly). Here is a study regarding osteoporosis and you will note that with 5mg copper plus 1000mg calcium plus 15mg zinc and 2.5 mg manganese, osteoporosis was reversed: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5154620

    There is not enough info in that paper. You should know that there are MANY things that interfere with absorption of copper, in particular zinc, calcium, vitamin C. (Check the paper at www.traceelements.com in their literature menu pick). Since we do not know we have to assume that the 5mg copper was taken WITH the zinc and calcium (resulting in a substantially lower delivered dose). You do not want to poison yourself. So I personally would take 2-3mg copper by itself or 5mg if taken with other supplements. You will note that the dose of copper is a multi is not enough and you should kow that multi vitamin use is linked to osteoporosis. I believe this is the reaon why.

    Triff
  15. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Maybe Curcumin could help you. Curcumin Meriva has a better bioavalibility then normal Curcumin. Not to be used in case of ulcers, gallstones or gallbladder obstructions.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    triffid113
    It's so hard figuring out what is causing my symptoms. My TSH and T4 are normal. I know my adrenals are screwed up though based on tests. I've read that there can be a connection between adrenals and thyroid, but I haven't really spent much time on that. And I haven't been taking any copper because I was concerned my symptoms were caused by copper toxicity. I do get at least 1 mg of copper from my diet though. I think D3 and K2 are also important for osteoporosis. Especially K2.
  17. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Did you get your T3 / free T3 / thyroid antibiodies / rt3 checked? My rt3 is a little high suggesting adrenal involvement. My TSH is also low, suggesting that my body is slowing my thyroid down so it doesn't go too fast for the adrenals. But what's actually causing this is a mystery so far.

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