Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
Discuss the article on the Forums.

You think ME is bad - try having a "Psychogenic movement disorder"!

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Woolie, Feb 3, 2015.

  1. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes:
    6,133
    northern Maine
    Yes, it's the $40,000 question - why don't doctors believe their patients and why can't patients get treatments to minimize symptoms while researchers are working out exactly what the illness is and how to treat it? The simple answer seems to be, "They hate us".

    But that answer leads me to another more basic question: if doctors dislike patients so much, why don't they find a different line of work?
     
    Jeckylberry, Scarecrow and medfeb like this.
  2. worldbackwards

    worldbackwards A unique snowflake

    Messages:
    2,091
    Likes:
    10,358
    Earth
    I think this is the appropriate place: maxwhd keeps picking this stuff up on Twitter. This is our pal Mark Edwards, lately seen doing far too much at the CMRC:
    Oh do fuck off.
    http://fndhope.org/living-fnd/physicians/
     
  3. worldbackwards

    worldbackwards A unique snowflake

    Messages:
    2,091
    Likes:
    10,358
    Earth
    I like to imagine him saying "...or is it the mind?" like a TV psychic and doing a mysterious hand gesture at the same time.
     
  4. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes:
    9,003
    This master-piece is available again thanks to mxwhd here:
     
    Jeckylberry and Woolie like this.
  5. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,260
    Likes:
    18,001
    These idiots still have not learned the difference between a tentative hypothesis and an experimentally tested theory.
     
    A.B., chipmunk1 and Jeckylberry like this.
  6. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    127
    Likes:
    415
    Queensland, Australia
    Smug git...It's nauseating! Revolting!! They also haven't learned that they are perpetuating the mind-body divide by suggesting some psychological reason for it! It's just a more elaborate, updated version of the same old conversion disorder shit! His example about getting stressed is just plain insulting. Fatigue is not medically unexplained is it? It's a symptom of many diseases from heart problems to viruses. Some causes have to be researched more to explain them. If things don't function at optimum, the result is fatigue to the degree by which the system is affected. How can this be 'unexplained'? How is a symptom an interpretative error leading to behaviour?? Now I know why my neurologist shrugged and said CFS is just another functional disorder. If it is then everything is!! You have to see this in terms of all illnesses just as faith healers do or it ends up with some people with illnesses or groups of symptoms being singled out for rude treatment.
     
    Valentijn, A.B. and Woolie like this.
  7. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes:
    2,822
    http://fndhope.org/fnd-guide/diagnosis/misdiagnosed/


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  8. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes:
    9,003
    I certainly am masochist, but I watched Bolton's video again. Very VERY upseting. But I think some of the things he said need to be written down.
    He is so arogant, dismissive and I've rarely seen someone trivialize MUS (he includes CFS in them) symptoms that way... trying to boost his self-esteem by depreciating patients. This is pathetic.

     
    GreyOwl, Woolie, Jeckylberry and 3 others like this.
  9. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,750
    Likes:
    23,195
    I agree, this explains a lot. These theories must be popular among doctors that can't handle the reality of senseless suffering and their own inability to help and therefore need to flee into some fantasy world where these things don't exist.
     
    jadam914, Valentijn, Sidereal and 4 others like this.
  10. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes:
    9,003
    Some other wonderfull quotes:


    Maintaining factors
    Iatrogenic factors
    Quite funny given that this guy just lectured his audience about avoiding dualistic thinking at the beguinning of his speech.

    Hypocondria as the cause of symptoms:
     
    Woolie and Jeckylberry like this.
  11. Jeckylberry

    Jeckylberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    127
    Likes:
    415
    Queensland, Australia
    Stop it @Cheshire! You're making me sick! :vomit: Hats off to you, though for steeling yourself to do this writing as it is very important to actually see what he says word for word. It is absolutely repugnant.

    He's a hell of a way from being holistic in his approach. His examples are rubbish. For every trivial anecdote there are thousands more examples of real misdiagnosis and resulting poor treatment. In @chipmunk1 's post, women under 55 having heart attacks are 7 times more likely than men to be discharged from the ER. (I'd suggest that this would also apply to mentally disabled people, children and marginalised groups or just anyone who doesn't behave like your average white male). This suggests there is something wrong with either the way the patient presents to the medicos or the way the medicos interpret her descriptions of her experience of the illness. When a young woman presents with palpitations do they think panic attack first? Whereas if a bricklayers apprentice of the same age comes in with the same symptoms do they think more on the physical side? For some reason he is more authentic??? Is it because the woman is more expressive? More descriptive, perhaps? Do the medicos feel more powerful when treating her than him and therefore just blow off her symptoms as hysterical like a child not wanting to go to school. Or is it just that they have grown up with the social custom of seeing men as objective and rational and women as mysterious and emotional. Historically women are viewed as emotional and less capable of being 'objective'. If you believe a person is not rational then you are less likely to take them seriously. In reality everything is an emotional response and everything is subjective. Whether you give something a number or a name you are engaging in a relationship with it and what value you assign to it will determine how you relate to it. From the figures @chipmunk1 quotes, clearly although male and female patient lives may be valued equally, what female patients say and how they describe their symptoms is valued 7 times less. There is no vacuum somewhere where doctors walk, impartial to assumption, conceit and ego. No hallowed ground where they treat everyone the same according to symptoms. Although the pursuit of this is admirable the assumption that they are actually doing this is what is making jerks like Bolton think they're legit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  12. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes:
    9,003
    Warning: this is not a joke, this is not The Onion or anything.

    Last article (?) of Alan Carson and Jon Stone.
    Explaining functional disorders in the neurology clinic: a photo story
    Alan Carson, Alexander Lehn, Lea Ludwig, Jon Stone

    I must confess I'm a bit speachless. I really don't know what to think of it (nothing positive for sure). First question that comes to mind is: are these guys OK? I mean, what happened, really.
    upload_2016-2-9_11-21-17.png

    There are 8 strips of this kind.
    upload_2016-2-9_11-22-59.png
    I can't say which word qualifies it best: contemptuous, patronising, simplistic, ridiculous, pathetic?

    To see the whole opus:
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...sorders_in_the_neurology_clinic_A_photo_story
     
  13. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes:
    14,572
    What a find, Cheshire!
    ... and then refer for psychotherapy, of course.

    Some other gems:
    FND cartoon 1.jpg

    And that old chestnut:
    FND cartoon 2.jpg
     
    Comet and Valentijn like this.
  14. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes:
    9,003
    Isn't it?

    The way they fantasise what patients think is very telling.
     
    Comet and Woolie like this.
  15. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes:
    14,572
    And to top it all off, that happy ending! But in reality, prognosis for these guys is poor. Most people continue to suffer for rest of their lives.

    Lots of nice "white lies" in here too - its not all in your head (although they expressly propose that it is), its a software not a hardware problem, etc.

    These guys re trying to understand and be helpful, but what they lack is a decent theory that specifies the biological mechanisms that govern these disorders. So all they've got is loose "psychological" stuff, and pretty much nowhere to go with that.

    And less face it, even if they are "psychological", there still must be biological mechanisms governing their occurrence, so gotta understand them first whatever the case.
     
    Jeckylberry, Comet, Sidereal and 5 others like this.
  16. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,426
    Likes:
    1,035
    Looks like a good advertisement campaign to sell some more psychotherapy. You know... the poor psychologist needs to put food on the table too. :lol:
     
    jadam914, Sidereal and Woolie like this.
  17. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,426
    Likes:
    1,035
    ... and how cool is the neurologist in strip #1, who is thinking "Oh god, here's another one of those!" even before having heard anything from the patient? Jeez, welcome to the "No s**t is given" clinic :rolleyes::)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  18. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes:
    2,822
    That is the way they really think. They had a hard night or day and simply don't have the motivation/energy to deal with minor or poorly understood problems so they label them psychological to get rid of the patient.

    They want us to shut up so that they have less work to do. We need to accept that we are confused idiots who don't know how to manage their stress/emotions so that they don't need to feel incompetent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
    jimells and PeterPositive like this.
  19. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    765
    Likes:
    2,822
    the psychologist says: Tackling unhelpful thoughts that may be involved in maintaining your symptoms can be very powerful.

    Then they don't understand why their patients run away.
     
    jimells and Woolie like this.
  20. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Revolting Peasant

    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes:
    5,385
    Scotland
    I'd be more impressed with the neurologist, physiotherapist and psychologist if this was a documentary about many real patients and not a cartoon about one imaginary one.


    p.s. I think I may have read too much Jackie when I was younger but didn't they forgot to show the receptionist looking dreamily at the neurologist?
     
    jimells, Woolie and Sidereal like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page