"You think I'm mad"

[ahmo]

I don't like speaking broadly about 'psychosomatic' illness, and things like that don't seem impossible to me... but I have come to realise that my reasons for thinking such problems did occur were really all based on anecdotes in medical papers, and that there isn't really any more compelling evidence than that.

Yes. I remember being intrigued by the term psychosomatic from my school days. I don't know how it came to my attention, since I grew up in the household of a surgeon and nurse, who didn't put much store in things of the mind. Maybe I felt this was the label that applied to my belly aches. There was never a reason for these belly aches, which I lived with forever. Until 3 years ago I understood I have "atypical" celiac disease. Atypical because my symptoms weren't primarily gut. Because I was so accustomed to my belly aches, that they were nothing compared to my low back pain.

Over the years I felt it applied to my lower back inflammation, which flared under stress. Really it wasn't until the past year that I understood the connection of adrenals and low back flares. You could still call this psychosomatic in that emotional or psychological stress whack my adrenals, which then lead to a flare. (no longer, pretty much in the past). But the leap from psychological stress impacting adrenals to it's all in your mind is clearly an artifact of the anecdotal psychobabble.

 

[Gondwanaland]

emotional or psychological stress

Neurotransmitter imbalance sure makes us feel bad.

I am amazed to have found out that the excruciating sciatica pain + herniated disc from my husband come from dopamine and adrenaline accumulation in the nerve synapses (2x +/+ COMT).

So obviously everytime he had emotional stressors his body would ache, since he can't break down adrenaline fast enough.

He even had swelling of the ulnar nerve and went thru surgery to decompress it exactly when he lost his job a few years ago.

I wish one of the drs we saw back then would have mentioned magnesium

At least his surgeon prescribed B12 shots for his back pain, which temporarily helped. But it wasn't until last December when I started giving him magnesium that he finally became pain free 90% of the time.

 

[worldbackwards]

But the leap from psychological stress impacting adrenals to it's all in your mind is clearly an artifact of the anecdotal psychobabble.

You might as well call a stress induced heart attack psychosomatic.

 

[mfairma]

You on the other side of the pond might not be as familiar with this as us in the U.S., but when you're looking for a communist, you discover they're everywhere! When looking for a terrorist, you find the same . . .

Even if these anecdotes do represent psychsomatic illness and that diagnosis could be proven with actual, positive evidence, the result of trying to root out psychosomatic illness is to see it everywhere and to become increasingly uncritical about what "it" is. Patients with ill-defined or difficult to diagnose anything are obviously vulnerable to the resultant witch hunt.

 

[taniaaust1]

I used to faint at the sight of my blood as a child, and that's surely some sort of psychsomatic response. I do wish there was less of an emphasis on doctor's interpretations of individual cases when discussing this sort of stuff though, as I think that does encourage quackery.

I think the danger with this stuff is when others are labelling people as being psychosomatic. You fainted on blood and you know that was a psychological response. I feel nauseus if I get highly stressed or on rare occasions, I've got a tension headache, I know that is a psychological response to stress.

The thing is the people with the symptoms often also know when something probably isn't, we usually know what sets off what. Who can know that better then the person experiencing the issues? I know my ME isn't psychological!

Unfortunately psychriastrists are often trying to be all knowing GODs who put the answer to 'that's psychological" to anything they don't know the cause too. I don't understand how this kind of thing even remains in medicine. It is completely illogical to put everything down to this and not to admit that one doesn't always have answer to something and any sane, normal person should be able to see this.

Any dr who cant admit there will be times he doesn't have the answer, shouldn't be practicing medicine!

 

[alex3619]

Neurotransmitter imbalance sure makes us feel bad

There is no question that an imbalance in a major neurotransmitter can have tragic consequences. However the key thing to note here is that direct measuring of brain neurotransmitters is very tricky and rarely even attempted. Surrogate markers are often used, such as blood levels (e.g. serotonin) or secondary consequences (NMR brain scans etc.). So the notion of neurotransmitter imbalance remains a convenient but unrpoven explanation in many cases, though perhaps more accurate more often than psychogenic babble. Its like a stuck clock, its right whenever the time moves around, whereas psychogenic babble is off the planet and not even looking at a clock.

 

[alex3619]

Any dr who cant admit there will be times he doesn't have the answer, shouldn't be practicing medicine!

Can I second that? Googolplex it?

 

[chipmunk1]

whereas psychogenic babble is off the planet and not even looking at a clock.

Psychobabble is 25:00 on a 24 hour clock.

 

[chipmunk1]

Yes. I remember being intrigued by the term psychosomatic from my school days. I don't know how it came to my attention, since I grew up in the household of a surgeon and nurse, who didn't put much store in things of the mind. Maybe I felt this was the label that applied to my belly aches. There was never a reason for these belly aches, which I lived with forever. Until 3 years ago I understood I have "atypical" celiac disease. Atypical because my symptoms weren't primarily gut. Because I was so accustomed to my belly aches, that they were nothing compared to my low back pain.

Over the years I felt it applied to my lower back inflammation, which flared under stress. Really it wasn't until the past year that I understood the connection of adrenals and low back flares. You could still call this psychosomatic in that emotional or psychological stress whack my adrenals, which then lead to a flare. (no longer, pretty much in the past). But the leap from psychological stress impacting adrenals to it's all in your mind is clearly an artifact of the anecdotal psychobabble.

the truth is that stress can make any illness worse at least subjectively but the illnesses that are solely caused by stress are far in between.

Psychobabble does not only believe that illnesses are caused by stress but that they are a communication of the soul and a way to express distress. They are intentionally caused by the subconscious of the individual.

Psychosomatics is the witch hunt of the healthcare system.

 

[eafw]

I used to faint at the sight of my blood as a child, and that's surely some sort of psychsomatic response.

That's an interesting example, because that is a vasovagal response (physical) but in order for it for to be activated it requires some sort of processing by the "mind" (a recognition of and meaning assigned to the object).

You can compare this to pain. With some people abdominal pain particularly, can lead to a similar vasovagal faint but that would be probably be recognised as a physical response rather than a psychosomatic one.

Other examples as people have said are stomach aches and headaches - most people have felt "butterflies" when they're nervous. Again this is a physical response to thought processes, that is the definition of psychosomatic, and is fairly easy to explain in terms of basic HPA stuff.

BUT

the problem is when Drs start conjuring up theories that have no viable mechanism, only "magical powers of thought" . It has to join up, and it doesn't. And it is even worse when there are physical theories that would fit, or masses of evidence that it is a physical issue even if we don't have a precise explanation, and people are suffering needlessly as a result.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I used to faint at the sight of my blood as a child, and that's surely some sort of psychsomatic response.

Could it be that seeing your blood raised your adrenaline too quickly and you couldn't cope with it?

 

[chipmunk1]

That's an interesting example, because that is a vasovagal response (physical) but in order for it for to be activated it requires some sort of processing by the "mind" (a recognition of and meaning assigned to the object).

Yes but it is still the brain that needs to send out the signal. What if the thoughts are OK but the brain is sending out the wrong signal due to some neurological error because there is some kind of inflammation in that area where the processing happens?

What if the thoughts are actually not OK and distorted but due to some kind of neurological problem not for psychic reasons?

What if the thoughts are OK and the right signal is sent out but it is sent too strong/too long due to some physiological problem?

What if the signal is OK and the thought is OK but the recipient of the signal does not interpret it correctly?

In the psychosomatic model there is no such thing it can only be the subconscious anything else is not investigated.

 

[eafw]

Yes but it is still the brain that needs to send out the signal. What if the thoughts are OK but the brain is sending out the wrong signal

Our thoughts are part of the signalling process not separate to it, and we know this can happen along a number of physiological pathways. HPA (fight/flight/freeze), dopamine (placebo effect, social bonds), vagal (perception of pain and injury).

Of course things can go wrong at any number of stages but it tends to be fairly simple, eg most people have a "yuk" reaction to visible injury. For some it is a stronger version of the same thing, it doesn't magically transmute into something entirely diffferent . That is, it's see blood --> feel off colour (to a larger or lesser extent), and that's more or less it.

Theses effects all tend to be transient, chronically can lead to longer term effects, but it's nothing that complicated. So if you are all tensed up all day then your muscles will ache. This, technically can be called psychosomatic. The term is just misused to invoke "magical mind powers" with no basis.

 

[A.B.]

Theses effects all tend to be transient, chronically can lead to longer term effects, but it's nothing that complicated. So if you are all tensed up all day then your muscles will ache. This, technically can be called psychosomatic. The term is just misused to invoke "magical mind powers" with no basis.

These small reactions are not illness but are misused to invoke psychosomatic illness for which there is zero evidence.

 

[chipmunk1]

is there a mental illness where the psyche makes you feel healthy despite having serious organic illness?

why aren't there reports on this type of psychosomatic illness?

 

[chipmunk1]

Theses effects all tend to be transient, chronically can lead to longer term effects, but it's nothing that complicated. So if you are all tensed up all day then your muscles will ache. This, technically can be called psychosomatic. The term is just misused to invoke "magical mind powers" with no basis.

yeah, the magical powers of the mind instead of giving us health, eternal life, fame and fortune they make us disabled.