• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

yet another unexplained huge improvement

K

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
ive read that cfsers have problems with brain vasodilation. when I have been having the benefits from the alcohol I have also been on a small dose of an maoi, which is contraindicated because it can raise blood pressure.

I tried no2 but didn't see any benefit.

ive just started using big doses of oregano oil and feel much clearer headed and brain fog is gone within an hour.

it could be the vasodilation, an immune modulating effect, some other effect or a combination.?

those with brain fog might want to try the oregano oil
 
parabola

parabola

Messages
93
Location
UK
My partner suffers from depression, and has always felt improvements with alcohol (ability to listen to music and enjoy things, ambition and creativity returns) I'd always put this down to alcohol making it more difficult to focus on anything but the immediate, but a few things never added up; he can (even after a long period of abstinence, and a fair amount of weight loss) still drink a ridiculous amount and not get drunk, still fully functioning which I can attest to. He maintains that 'being drunk' isn't in itself responsible for the improvements he feels either.

Do you think this means that the vasodilatory effect is responsible and this 'NO2' supplement could help him? He also has some autistic spectrum traits too, which could tie in with Richvanks theory..
 
gregh286

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
parabola said:
My partner suffers from depression, and has always felt improvements with alcohol (ability to listen to music and enjoy things, ambition and creativity returns) I'd always put this down to alcohol making it more difficult to focus on anything but the immediate, but a few things never added up; he can (even after a long period of abstinence, and a fair amount of weight loss) still drink a ridiculous amount and not get drunk, still fully functioning which I can attest to. He maintains that 'being drunk' isn't in itself responsible for the improvements he feels either.

Do you think this means that the vasodilatory effect is responsible and this 'NO2' supplement could help him? He also has some autistic spectrum traits too, which could tie in with Richvanks theory..
Click to expand...

Depression and CFS not same thing. CFS has physical consequences. If hes just depressed NO2 black make no difference.
 
parabola

parabola

Messages
93
Location
UK
gregh286 said:
Depression and CFS not same thing. CFS has physical consequences. If hes just depressed NO2 black make no difference.
Click to expand...
Of course I'm not suggesting they're the same thing! I've had cfs long enough to know the difference ;) NO2 isn't a CFS supplement anyway is it? I was wondering whether his depression could be caused by vasoconstriction if the vasodilatory properties of alcohol ease his symptoms.
 
K

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
ok. its not just the alcohol. it seems that raising blood pressure is the mechanism. while on the maoi I ate high tyromine foods and the cfs symptoms and depression lifts almost completely very quickly. Fluge and Mellas theory is apparently that the b cells are effecting the way oxygen is carried throughout the body https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ut-found-to-relieve-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

it could also be that we have thick blood. has anyone had any of these testshttps://cfsremission.wordpress.com/treatment/thick-blood-clots-dimension-of-cfs-etc/ or tried these treatments https://cfsremission.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/thick-blood-supplements-for-cfs/
 
JES

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
knackers323 said:
it have any effect?
Click to expand...

I tried bromelain for this purpose, which is a proteolytic enzyme from pineapple that breaks down the blood-clotting protein fibrin. I noticed already few hours later better circulation in my hands and legs if I take it on empty stomach, also less brain fog, so I suspect I had some sort of hypercoagulation response going on. Unfortunately, this didn't cure my CFS/ME, but made some of the symptoms better.
 
K

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
I believe hemex is now esoterix labs. anyone know if the blood clotting tests they do are the same as what hemex used to do or if they can be done from outside US?
 
M

.Moose.

Messages
4
@knackers323 hey so how are you feeling, still good? I have a similar positive reaction the day after excessive alcohol consumption so am also looking for an answer...

This piqued my interest as I know others who have recreated the well being of this 'hangover effect' long term through tetrahydrobiopterin (bh4), a potent NO scavenger. I know you said NO2 didn't benefit you but seems to be on a similar line of thought... Please tell us more when you can :)
 
gregh286

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
jees this is getting interesting.
I use NO2 black and started the thread....complete symptom relief with No2 black.
I also get huge relief from alcohol and vasodilators in general.
Without No2 black I am a train wreck....it is that simple......I start to go down after 30 hours, when i take it I improve after a day or so.
I have thought for a year or more than lack of vasodilation in arterioles causes CFS, thus creating lactic acid in cells etc, and all the spin off symptoms.

Onto the nitty gritty..... @.Moose, you mention others with recreating long term with BH4,,,,interestingly Ron Davies noticed this chain was broken....look:

"Davis finished by highlighting one more pathway where he has observed severely abnormal data points in the ME/CFS patients: the GTP cyclohydrolase pathway. GTP looks to be low in ME/CFS, and downstream from that, as a consequence BH4 also seems to be low.

BH4 is used to make dopamine and serotonin, and he’s also seeing low dopamine in the kidney — it seems that his subjects may be unable to secrete salt, which would have all sorts of effects, including low blood volume and restrictions of blood vessels … which could account for a lot of symptoms.

But why is the GTP low, he wonders. This is all very fundamental biochemistry of the human body. Ending a spectacularly optimistic presentation on an optimistic note, Davis suggested that the symptoms of ME/CFS may well turn out to have a simple and common origin … and he’s clearly going to continue throwing all his considerable weight at the problem."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrobiopterin

So, my question, can you supplement with Bh4, or improve this GTP pathway by supplements?
How are these people using/getting the bh4?
thanks
greg
 
bo.panda

bo.panda

Messages
6
Many times I thinked of this strange thing when after a lot of drinks you had hangover + noticable improvement in some symptoms.
 
M

.Moose.

Messages
4
@gregh286 I'm wary of hijacking this thread to talk about my experience/ideas as the group I come from suffer more neurological/SCT symptoms and not actually CFS. However, the cross over of these hangover symptoms seems too unusual and too similar to be completely unrelated...

I believe what you experience is a direct benefit from alcohol in your system but in myself and the OP it appears to a more delayed response eg the next day or two?

Still, if you want to talk bh4 etc drop me a message as if you're looking into it, I might be able to help :)
 
SueJohnPat

SueJohnPat

Sue
Messages
236
Location
Medford NJ
I
gregh286 said:
One in morning....mid afternoon and night best. Keeps vessels open all day instead of a window.
Topped up with NO2 black, high value carbs and amitripline at night keeps CFS at bay.
Click to expand...
I also experience relief with alcohol. I did not drink at all for a few years.
I think from your posts we have same subtype of CFS. i had two martini's while on vacation , ( this is way overboard for me ) was able to go to the boardwalk with my sons,
The next day I felt better than normal and went out and got coffee and bagels for my family . I have not done this since I became ill. ( did not feel the - oh my god I have to force myself feeling , just did it without thinking like I used too.
Definitely vasodilation , nitric acid cycle. Looking at " hangover biochemistry"
 
gregh286

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
SueJohnPat said:
I

I also experience relief with alcohol. I did not drink at all for a few years.
I think from your posts we have same subtype of CFS. i had two martini's while on vacation , ( this is way overboard for me ) was able to go to the boardwalk with my sons,
The next day I felt better than normal and went out and got coffee and bagels for my family . I have not done this since I became ill. ( did not feel the - oh my god I have to force myself feeling , just did it without thinking like I used too.
Definitely vasodilation , nitric acid cycle. Looking at " hangover biochemistry"
Click to expand...

no2 black should work for you if are in subset as me. that is relief from vasodilators....bath..sauna..alco...no boosters..

i have ordered bh4.....the no co-factor martin pall talks about. i have bought enough for 2 months. if bh4 keeps my cfs at bay like no2 black does.....then it would seem palls theory looks sound.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.