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Yasko Simplified : Lithium with very low B12 ??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Milford, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. Milford

    Milford

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    I understand the protocol that Dr Amy suggests and totally 'get" the need to do the steps in the right order. I have been through all of this myself and have found Dr Amy's guidelines invaluable. I think I have every problem there is when it comes to lithium dumping and needing to be careful with B12.

    My question though, is to do with something different..... I am not questioning the protocol.........my observation is that the general recommendations do not refer to actual serum B12 levels... or, if they do, they refer to B12 being HIGH because of low Lithium not getting the B12 into the cells.

    My big concern is..... what if serum B12 is very LOW. Is there a problem adding in Lithium BEFORE B12 and driving the serum level of B12 even lower... and therefore exacerbating low B12 symptoms ( in this case severe depression )

    My friend has severe depression not responding to meds. His B12 level is 120 and his Hair Lithium is <0.04
    If he adds in Lithium with a B12 this low, will it make matters worse by lowering B12 further?
     
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    My 2C... with such a low B12 level (dangerously low) no wonder your friend is depressed :(
    Why not taking some B12 right away and deal with the possibly low lithium later? Lithium level in the hair is unlikely to be a reliable marker, while low serum B12 certainly is a bad sign.

    The worst that can happen is that B12 won't help the depression but at least it will avoid other (pretty serious) problems to arise. (Actually I think restoring B12 will certainly improve the mood)

    cheers
     
  3. Milford

    Milford

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    Thank you, Peter.
    According to Dr Amy Yasko, hair Lithium IS a good marker ( whereas blood isn't ) . If Lithium is very, very low, it will not drive the B12 and Folate into the cells . So, if you add in B12 with little or no Lithium then it will just pool in the blood. I guess that might be a better scenario than adding in Lithium alone and driving the serum B12 level down. I suspect that very low B12 AND Lithium together might be especially bad for depression.
    At such a low B12 level he will most likely do better on injections.
    I called Dr Yasko's office and they said to email her the question.......so I will !
     
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Does she at least recommend a specific lab for testing hair lithium level? The problem with those tests is that they use different methodologies and it's not very clear which is more reliable than others.

    In my last hair test I had lithium at 0,0006 which is way lower than Yasko's proposed limit (maybe it's a different scale, mine is mg/100g) and it was marked as low. Nonetheless I take folate and B12 and they definitely work for me.

    I was going to try low doses of lithium supps but I am already taking 30/40+ pills a days so I haven't tried yet. It looks like I swallow more pills than food! :rolleyes:
     
  5. Milford

    Milford

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    She uses Doctors Data lab for her testing. You can order the test via her office with no doctors order and she adds comments to the results.
    I had very high B12/folate on my bloodworm, high MCV at 108 and symptoms of B12/Folate deficiency........ so that is why I got into testing for Lithium.
     
    PeterPositive likes this.
  6. silverseas2014

    silverseas2014

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    Hello. I took Methylcobalamin and Dibencozide for about a year with positive results before adding any lithium. With the lithium added my energy is "smoother" for want of a better word or phrase. I have not done any testing to determine if my lithium levels were indeed low to begin with.
    Additionally, I have not noticed any negative side-effects from taking 5 mg. of Lithium Orotate (Advanced Research tablets) a day. I break the tablet into quarters and take one-quarter of a 5 mg. tablet with every dose of Methylcobalamin and Methylfolate. I have noticed that the Lithium Orotate makes my moods smoother---that is, I definitely miss it when I forget a dose.
     
    Ninan likes this.
  7. wscholder

    wscholder

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    @Milford As I understand, Dr. Yasko is concerned that taking B12 with low lithium will drive the lithium levels lower. Therefore, she recommends raising lithium levels before taking B12 or folate.
     
  8. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Is there any more context to this?
    For example, what would be a B12 dosage capable of causing significant changes in the lithium status? 1mg? 10mg? For how long?

    I suppose taking one B12 supps for a few weeks at mcgs dosages isn't going to affect lithium levels that much?

    Does Yasko provide this sort of context?

    Thanks
     
  9. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    The Doctors Data Hair Elements can be ordered through "Walk-In Labs" without a prescription. I believe it is $112
     
  10. wscholder

    wscholder

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    @Milford - I don't believe that she provides much detail (or context). I will try to investigate this subject by doing some google searches.
     
  11. Milford

    Milford

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    Order through HolisticHeal and it is $85
     
    August59 likes this.
  12. Milford

    Milford

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    What she noticed, from studying hundreds and hundreds of Hair results and urinary Toxic Elements, was that people with the MTR and MTRR mutations tended to "dump" Lithium into the urine... often to the extent of becoming depleted. She feels it is important to get Lithium levels up again BEFORE adding in the B12, and now recommends that as part of her Simplified Protocol. She does not go into specifics as to doses, but for myself, I was supplementing with B12 and Folate before I knew about the Lithium issues, and I got very little effect and my MCV stayed put at 108. My hair Lithium was <0.004. Once I started adding in the Lithium ( having stopped the B12 and Folate ) I started to detox immediately .
    I guess how much B12 would promote more dumping is a matter of individual genetics.......my Lithium started to drop again when I got B12 doses up to about 5mg a day. Yasko uses very small doses generally.... but she also does not pay too much attention to blood levels of B12
     
    PeterPositive likes this.
  13. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    What happened exactly? What sort of detox symptoms did you have?

    thanks
     
  14. Milford

    Milford

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    I have had very, very high levels of Lead ( from stripping a whole house worth of old paint years ago ) Usually, within 30 minutes of taking the Lithium i would get a very strong metallic taste in my mouth, and would feel suddenly tired and flu-ish. I quickly discovered that this dumping of metals was going to be the limiting factor in how fast I could ramp up the methylation. I would add in too much B12 and Folate and get huge metallic dumps that would crash me out for days on end. I am MTHFR C677T +/+, and adding in the 5MTHF is the thing that REALLY gets the dumping going.
    Then added on top of this.... just to confuse things.... is the Potassium depletion. The first time I overdid the methylation supps. my heart was pounding +++ and my legs and ankles started to swell. I also had some cramping of the small muscles in my feet. Figured this was due to low Potassium, so I take Potassium "table salt" which has about 600mg per quarter teaspoon. I would take this as soon as the heart thumping started and it usually resolved within 15 minutes. Sometimes it would come back again after an hour or so, so i would take another 'dose'. It was quite alarming when I first went into heart failure, but now i am quite used to the symptoms and I actually take a 1/4 tsp of K with my morning dose of Lithium.
    A combination of detox symptoms AND low Potassium can be difficult to figure out. I am 'fortunate' in that the strong metallic taste is a good indicator for me.
     
    PeterPositive likes this.
  15. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @Milford interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain.

    I also have the MTHFR C677T++ snp, among other things, and have found some help in the B12/folate combo. I haven't investigated the Lithium connection much in depth, but my lithium never showed up very high in my hair tests. In fact in the last test it was insufficiently low.

    I didn't know about that the potassium table salt delivered so much K ... could be an interesting replacement for sodium. Do you use potassium chloride?

    cheers
     
  16. Milford

    Milford

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    The "salt" I use is called NoSalt and I get it in the grocery store in Canada for around $8. It is made in the USA. It is a mixture of Potassium Chloride and Potassium BiTartrate.... but it doesn't say the proportions. 1/4 tsp gives 650mg of Potassium.
    It has a few fillers, which I am not that happy about, but I put up with them !
    It IS worth looking into the Lithium issue.......if your hair level was very low, that is a good clue ! Do you know your B12 level? A very high level might mean that you are absorbing B12 OK, but it isn't getting into the cells. A low B12 level does not exclude Lithium deficiency , because it might mean a combination of poor absorption/transport AND low Li.
     
    PeterPositive likes this.
  17. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Thanks. I will try a bit of Li.
    I no longer check my B12 levels because I've been taking high dose supplements for over 2 years.
     
  18. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Great thread, thanks for sharing! I have a problem with B12 becoming less and less effective. In the beginning, years ago, I had effect from hydroxyB12 pills and now I need methyl shots combined with lots of extra nutrients to make it work at all. When it doesn't my need for folate sky rockets. I just ordered lithium orotate, 5 mgs, to see if that might make a difference. From your experience @Milford it seems best to start with crumbs since I probably have extremely high B12 levels in my blood.
     
  19. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Ninan,
    If your FAD (the active coenzyme form of riboflavin - Vit B2) is low, it will chew up your MeB12, and hence the AdoB12. And I remember Rich saying something about needing glutathione to protect B12. Maybe you need to look at those factors.

    Lynn
     
    Ninan likes this.
  20. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Ninan I don't know if this is useful for you, but...I've been using B12 as transdermal oil for nearly 4 months. I'm so relieved to no longer have pink gums all day. I'm not sure if you've been on the transdermal B12 thread...I shared there that afgter using the excellent commercial B12 oil, I experimented with using B12 drops and applying with my moisturizer/body creme. I've had excellent results, at a real cost savings. Just now I've switched to a different brand of drops, as the first one was no longer available. Bluebonnet 5000mcg drops, a full dropperful, mixed into a fingerfull of my body creme, and then rubbed onto my body has been even more effective. I've had to increase my folate by 200mcg, as this new brand caused hair loss. It might be worth a try for you, only about $13 for bottle (2ml?) with 60 doses. BTW, I also use lithium, have been for about 1.5 years, 5-10mg/day.
     
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