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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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XRX update on HGRV research and Dr Snyderman

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by currer, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    http://treatingxmrv.blogspot.com/2011/12/update-from-michael-snyderman-md.html

    Nice to see some interesting research going ahead on HGRVs and human disease.

    If the implications of Dr Snydermans work are correct HGRVs could underlie the recent rise in some cancers and "autoimmune" disorders. This is immensly important and disturbing research.

    I admire the integrity and bravery of Dr Mikovits, Ruscetti, Snyderman and Deckoff-Jones in continuing to pursue this research despite the outcry and criticism they have faced.

    Maybe we need to let the oncologists know about the possible links between "CFS" and cancer. Suppose some of their patients could have remissions on antiretrovirals?
     
  2. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thank you currer - I find very interesting too and your reasons.
     
  3. Tony Mach

    Tony Mach Show me the evidence.

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    The first medication working against HIV was AZT. AZT was a anti-cancer medication. Does that prove that HIV/AIDS is a cancer and not a virus?

    That a anti-retroviral works in a cancer case can have all kinds of reasons. It is promising and should be followed up but it does not prove that this cancer is caused by a retro-virus.

    The only connection to CFS are the faulty XMRV-tests from the WPI/VIPdx. Both Dr. Snyderman and Dr. Deckoff-Jones now acknowledge that the XMRV tests were faulty. Please read their blog-posts.

    There is no such thing as HGRVs.
     
    Firestormm likes this.
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Tony Mach, one correction: there is no proven HGRV. It does not mean they don't exist, it means the burden is still on someone to reproducibly demonstrate their existence. Bye, Alex
     
  5. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    you know what i dont understand? if they can find so many viruses now with NGS, why arent they finding the virus that causes MS? lupus? autism? everyone knows its a virus. maybe they arent even looking...and if not, why? WTF is this??? why did it take someone like dr. mikovits to say what the whole world was afraid of saying in public???? W T F

    those communities need to demand lipkin or whoever find the viruses that are causing those diseases, too. the govt only seems to care about diseases when people are dying on the street. i hate them!

    if the govt wont do it, the drug companies will. why is everyone wasting time? this is making me FURIOUS!
     
  6. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Hi Daffodil,

    The resistance is because health care providers will need to do a complete reevaluation of the role of medicine, vaccination, and public health provision if the implications of this research is true.

    And that will be a painful process.

    The cancer lobby is important though.
    What would happen if some of these charities thought that some of their cancers could be treated with antiretrovirals?

    Would they accept thirty years of neglect and denial of treatment as we have done?
    Cancer has always been taken seriously - as people die from it.
    After all you might be able to reverse a terminal decline if these treatments worked.
    Hard to withold research in this area of medicine.

    Additionally there will be financial implications for bioengineering - we cannot release MLV based gene vectors into the population if there are already "wild" MLVs in humans.

    This will cost the biotechnology industry as there has been a lot of money invested in this research.

    Any scientist who supports this hypothesis will have a difficult time because of the vested interests which have been built up around medicine.

    I dont expect an early acceptance of Ruscetti, Mikovits and Snyderman's findings, which is why I am so impressed by the bravery of these medical pioneers.
     
  7. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Currer
    *Nods* like I keep saying
    "If you want to make enemies, try to change something"

    something has to be driving the vast increases in cancer, autism and autoimmune illnesses, it's impossible for genetics to trigger such enormous increases in such a short time, and studies show these rates of increase are fact and are astronomical.
    The "elephant in the room" is NOT "can we cure cancer" but "What the hell is causing so much of it?"

    you have the following choices:

    1) pesticides & herbicides
    the organochlorate and organophosphates used since WW2 are heinously toxic, especially the latter
    for decades corporate shills touted out "How safe they were"
    oh yeah, really, Sarin-relatives are SAFE?! STFU! You spray them on a town you'd kill hundreds of people, only difference between Sarin and a typical pesticide version is the latter is chosen/designed for less toxicity to mammals than to arthropods, it's STILL a contact nerve poison and most of 'em are nasty mutagens

    And now...oh, finally they admit they may not be so safe....and hence growing push in Europe to ban them
    and the industry pundits fight against this, oh, who is against this, would it happen to be...folk like JunkScience, Science media Centre types?
    because you know, making food is important!! can't get in way of progress and that! *slaps forehead*
    Technology Uber Alles
    Money/arrogance over people.

    See also the bullsh*t over DDT
    no, it was not banned where it was needed, it was banned for COMMERICAL crop spraying because that was the damn problem, using it in vast quantities IS dangerous, not small scale house spraying etc..and in the end anyway, it's useless because resistiance always defeats it. All you can use it for is to give short term relief, and use tha breahting space to drain stagnant water, improve local health care etc.
    General public health works, societal improvements (like letting women get health care etc ye gods the backwardness of some places, ugh) and civil engineering are a damn sight better than drugs and pesticides for reducing health issues

    2) Vaccines
    multiple severe and unnatural immune responses triggered in children, injected with foreign genetic material grown in labs with chemicals designed to highten the immune response
    some of those labs connected with biowarfare experiments
    Pharma corps admittedly consider vaccines "bargain basement" work with extremely high profit returns (because they conned governments into accepting the idemnity!)
    Early work done on such where private companies kept primates from across the globe in close, filthy conditions, ie, rich spawning grounds for viruses to "blend" into new, fun, fun shapes! :rolleyes:
    um, hello?! Earth to sanity, come in, sanity :p

    3) Heavy metals
    from tetraethyl lead from car fumes to lead pipes and sinter plants, elemental toxic metals have been soaking into every day life for two centuries at a geometric rate, but the tetraethyl lead was potentially the worst, air borne, with the increase of cars post WW2, we got car smog...and other materials within the combustion products were identified as extremely carciogenic (saw a study from Japan claiming a compound found in diesel exhausts was the most potent carcinogen they'd ever seen...unsurpisingly that report somehow went under the radar)
    here in UK, government was more concerned with industry, $$$, than Human health:
    Hey, can't have cars "pinking" and it's only those sub-humans in dense urban areas, ie the poor labour voters, who're going to soak that poison up, not the nice, more spread out and away from the roads professional types! Who cares if more morlocks have subnormal children, eh? If they kill each other off with increased violence and drug addiction what matters that to the Elite on their playing fields of Eton?
    (that bit was dark sarcasm, in case some misconstrue it, but IMHO, has grain of truth to it)

    http://www.damninteresting.com/the-ethyl-poisoned-earth/Grrrrr!
    Bah! *spits*
    Scumbags didn't ban tetraethyl lead here until 2000

    4) Increased world population
    vastly increased air travel (so virsues won't die out as they used on long sea voyages as passengers either died or became immune)
    "bush meat" trade (See Ebola for why that's so damn bad) and foolish holiday making to dangerous areas = more exotic viruses etc being brought back to their communities

    5) Synergy
    the Real World (tm) is *NOT* a laboratory!
    you simply cannot understand/note how such things behave in real situations from lab work alone. The blinkered stupid arrogance I've seen...GAH!!!
    Real world, real people's health is NOT like freaking CERN!!! (not getting at physicists at all, rather, those who expect basic lab work on animals etc to pan out neatly on Homo Sapiens Urbanis)
    You can run a million runs in particle physics and get good data safely and without the mind boggling complexities a real, dirty, chaotic world has.
    Physicists know they need perfect precision and "exclusion".
    You can't get reliable data otherwise.
    But tests in labs with things which occur in the complex real ORGANIC world are on a false start to begin with, alas
    (reductionism is fine for parts, but people are more than parts),
    necessary limitation of coruse of practicalities of research, but still will give false baselines in the end

    And synergies...ugh, until recently, the required computing/analysis/data gathering was simply impossible for such, it's staggeringly complex as every new interaction can spiral off a cascade of possibilities....

    Synergy: in simple terms oh, a very surprising thing was found in the late 1800s
    nitro (actually two mixed nasty acids) + glycerine (mostly harmless syrupy stuff) = KABOOM! :p

    6) and finally, horrifingly
    chance some of this is related to bioweapon tests on the population
    not saying such IS the cause, merely those crazy maniacs' may well have had a hand in this
    since, if they were crazy enough to release huge amounts of "quote" harmless "unquote" bacteria over cities from what has been uncovered....what the hell did they do that was NOT uncovered?

    note this
    such things were only discovered by investigative journalists who were often dismissed as crackpots for years (until goverments had to apologize and admit they were right), or ironically, by the auditing systems of government
    Like it or damn not, HIV *could* be a bioweapon, note I said *could* be not that it *is* (one of nasty issues about such heinous crap is it is so dubious, and muddies the waters unecessarily, another reason all activities such should be banned).
    We know for fact funding/interest was there for such specific weapon development (hey go check for yourself, US government records prove this)

    weaponized pathogens are...bad, very different kettle of fish from normal disease organisms
    and there was as said, work/interest/fudning for immune-system affecting agents
    whether such was carried out, whether it was even practical by science of the time (military research is often up to 10+ years ahead of civlian in some areas, see SR-71 Blackbird)...who knows?
    Lyme Disease and the Soviet's insanity in the Aral Sea region suggests that, hey, they really could have been that stupid.


    We Humans have created the perfect storm...with us being the leaves blown on it's winds
     
  8. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    well how about this.....if we get well.....why dont we stage a HUGE occupy movement all over the place? i mean...why not?? everyone KNOWS MS for example is caused by a virus....IVIG works on them for a while and then stops right? rituxan too.

    all they keep doing is finding those stupid old herpes viruses again. and every now and then, they will find some evidence of retroviral activity and someone will publish a paper and that's it. it's up to the patients to demand things change.

    hell...even with rich people like jenny mccarthy appearing on larry king all the time, i still see NOTHING getting done at all. i mean...nothing REAL. why aren't people demanding it? i mean..why isnt EVERYONE demanding it? autism strikes 1 in 100 kids now.....everyone KNOWS its infection....W T F

    when are the people going to say enough is enough? maybe WE should
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    We hear ya. Our problem is we have to keep proving we are sick and because we dont die within a few years and doesnt effect them directly, they dont really care and dont really know much about it. The only medicos that actualy study and treat this illness are the ones who have it themselves or relatives and friends or were stuck in the middle of an outbreak and seen the lack of support from govts. its just not positively advertised, its not a 'sexy' illness. I think even if theres a proven cause we then have to prove who it slowly kills people by increasing their risk factors for lymphoma's and cancers. Im sure there are plenty of famous cfsers out there but know one wants to pick up the ball and run with it because of all the damge done to the image of cfs in the 1980s with dam yuppie flu.

    How do we do it?
    I still think we should make a date and all go and donate blood and tell the blood banks we have me/cfs and we need to tell the blood banks and media in advance about this. Many cancer suffers on chemo need blood transfusions and have neutropenia and sensitive to any type of infection. I dont want to infect anyone but maybe we need to put the wind up everyone and the authorities. With enough warning time you would think that they would hear our demands and nip our blood donations in the bud???
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi SilverbladeTE, one more thing to add to your list: plastic outgassing. Plastics are relatively recent, and have become ubiquitous in recent times. For everybody using a computer, guess how much plastic outgassing might be around you? Computers also contain a lot of rare earths and other stuff that humans would have encountered only rarely in past times. Bye, Alex
     
  11. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Alex
    good call!
    Look at recent work showing bisphenol plastics are NOT the safe wonderful material Big Business said they were.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

    and please note folks: I am not a misanthrope nor a technophobe (hey, I'm a geek! :p).
    I just know that Humans in groups are far too often wicked, incredibly stupid, deliberately ignorant, "fingers in their ears", vile, lying, decietful, destructive horrors :(

    technological improvements have improved and saved billions of lives...and taken/harmed untold numbers too.
     
  12. Overstressed

    Overstressed Senior Member

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    Perhaps because the world is so afraid of retroviruses ? Since HIV, every retrovirus is equal to having HIV. Imagine what it would do to the world population when many people are infected with one or more retroviruses ?

    OS.
     
  13. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    I agree with you, overstressed.

    I think there has been a concerted effort since the AIDS epidemic to avoid the implications of research which implicates animal retroviruses in human disease, especially new human diseases.
    There is still controversy about the origin of the HIV retrovirus and polio vaccines.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Hooper

    Unfortunately this problem will not go away just because it is ignored.
     
  14. Overstressed

    Overstressed Senior Member

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    No, it won't go away. It's been 5 million years that human-like seperated from apes, and imagine what would have happened when a virus like HIV starting infecting people ? And with no condoms around... Our genome is app. 8% of retroviral origin. Were these not-disease causing retroviruses ? Was our immune-system stronger back then ?

    Most likely I'm missing a part to understand the full picture.

    OS.
     
  15. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    but look.....if everyone with CFS, autism, MS, some cancers, etc etc... has a retrovirus, there will be NO stigma....i mean...40% of us will have them!

    and who cares? they will be cured eventually....they will have no choice BUT to cure them.

    how can anyone think that finding the cause of disease is a bad thing. i dont see it! it would save trillions in human potential.

    I DONT UNDERSTAND PEOPLE!!

    hopefully, once gammaretroviruses are found in CFS, it will light a fire under more people.
     
  16. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    "Additionally there will be financial implications for bioengineering - we cannot release MLV based gene vectors into the population if there are already "wild" MLVs in humans."

    Currer, I'm a bit dense here, could you explain that for me, do you mean vaccination in the above quote?

    This is a great thread btw! I love how some of you laid out whats making the world toxic..... but does seem too overwhelming tho to deal with....too many dif things and interests.

    So do you guys think Lipkin is in a position to try to get to bottom of some of this? I was surprised he backd Judy like he did and pulled those researchers into the fold recently, I am happily surprised. I was just so skeptical because of his connection with Fauci and we all know Fauci is Dr EVil from the info in Oslers Web. I also wondered about him taking down WAkefield who seems like may have raised legitimate issues.
     
  17. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Hi xrayspex,

    I was thinking of gene vectors which are being developed to try to correct some genetic conditions, and not vaccination as such.
    Gene vectors will be engineered so that they cannot replicate. However, if they meet another unmodified MLV retrovirus once they have been released into the population, they could recombine with this and become replication competent again, but this time as a replication competent bioengineered gene vector and spread infectiously out into healthy people modifying the populations DNA as they go!

    Do we really want to find we have picked up an infection from somewhere that additionally inserts a gene into us which was originally designed to replace a faulty gene of (say) a cystic fibrosis sufferer? When we do not have cystic fibrosis?

    Just an example of the sort of thing that might happen.

    But this industry (bioengineering) is potentially a huge money maker for someone and is being promoted by all governments as the next profitable technology to get us out of the recession.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003144

    This is the paper by Silverman which expresses concerns about the potential interaction between MLVs in the population (if they are there,) and gene vectors.
    The discussion section is particularly clear on these concerns.

    These are concerns which are independent of the HGRV / ME debate, as this paper was written by the prostate cancer researchers.

    Now to make another point, but about about vaccination this time, given that we have known for fifty years that there are DNA/ RNA contaminants in vaccines it would make sense to have some active screening of the population. We need to look for signs of diseases that might be reasonably expected to show up in the population and be caused by these contaminants. You cannot assume there are no problems, just because you have not looked.
     
  18. currer

    currer Senior Member

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  19. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    If they hushed up any issues regarding HIV's origin (known or just feared/suspected by them), used psych goons to bulldoze ME into non-existance, what do you think they'll do for new, more lucrative tech?
    Vaccine indusry is worth abut $50 billion a year.
    I strongly suspect they "Weaseled" ME because they feared or knew there was a link between ME and vaccines (plus, hey, it helped keep the insurance companies and government disability systems paying out less too, so they are happy).

    $50 billion, bonus, fat cat lifestyle >>>>>> than 1:300 peopel suffering appalling sickness.
    They dont' give a rat's as long as the Quarterly Reports are good.

    Does anyone think the sons of b***** will not bury similar concerns over work that could...let them slow or reverse aging, cure cancer etc, hm?
    Talking TRILLIONS of dollars of profit.
    How much would you pay to have your biological clock turned back to you 20s? Can you see how much money could be involved?
    Look at Viagra and similar drugs, massive profit, no jokes (billion+ dollars a year in sales of that class of drugs), WARS are started over those kind of sums.

    So ya think they'd let any concerns over viral contaminants slow them down?
    Hahaha, HELL, NO!

    Plus there are scumbags who are, as I have said before "Technology Uber Alles"
    they see the advancement of technology, and the benefits it brings, as being more important than ANY problems.
    "You can't make an omlette without breaking eggs" is their "kill switch"
    the arrogance and stupidity of that is galling :(


    Anyone doubts this, please go see how the tobacco companies acted, and how our governments acted about nuclear weapons/power (espcially in the 1950s)
    According to those bozos, you could smoke a fag the size of a baseballbat every day, and use plutonium condoms "Irradiated for her pleasure!" (TM), and you'd be perfectly safe! :D
     
  20. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Only AIDS is caused by a retrovirus. There is no evidence for RVs in MS, other cancers. It's speculation.

    One reason there are more cases of cancer? People are living longer.
     

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