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XMRV testing: The REDLABS, trading as VIP Dx, WPI connection

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by jace, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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    The difficulty with that statement is that it was made after sale of the tests were suspended (and indeed possibly after Redlabs ceased trading), so (apart from the ESME page quoted already) there is no public record of what was being claimed for the tests by VIPdx at the time tests were being promoted to patients.

    IVI
     
  2. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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    I wasn’t suggesting disagreement is wrong, but pointing out that there were two opposing views which could not in ‘fact’ both be accommodated. Either the tests were ‘experimental’ (with all the ethical problems that brings) and patients were or were not made aware of that status, or the tests were (in the minds of WPI and VIPdx) not experimental and no claim was made to patients that was the case.


    There are both general and specific concerns at issue. Mikovits has claimed (subsequent to her employment at WPI being terminated) that she expressed various concerns about the VIPdx tests – but in the claims made public she has focussed on the issue of whether the VIPdx tests were effectively reproducible of the work that supported the Lombardi et al 2009 paper. This is a non sequitur because Lombardi et al 2009 was based on an hypothesis that has been multiply falsified. Mikovits surely must recognise that without a wide range of confirmatory studies, no clinical validation could take place ? It is irrelevant whether Dr Mikovits has direct involvement with VIPdx, she had to have known at the point that commercial tests we announced, that these could have no clinical or diagnostic value.
    The situation you encountered was entirely corrupt and we can only hope that patients will complain to NHS managers or the BMC when these abuses of position occur. The issue of ordering is significant – because VIPdx claimed that ordering was only possible through a doctor – it would be of great benefit to all interested parties if patients who did get tests without going through a doctor could post online documentation that shows that VIPdx were not abiding by their claimed limitation.

    I did respond to this point previously – without going through the entire document, it does seem that all the tests which have definitive medical use have been clinically validated and that they are designed to identify established medical phenomena that are understood to have potential clinical relevance. The list may well include medically questionable tests, where the cover of the doctor acting as ‘nutritionist’ or naturopath’ obscures professional responsibility.

    The inappropriate prescription of medically unnecessary tests is a further matter of professional conduct, again one can only hope that patients report this sort of abuse. Although not precisely equivalent, in broad terms this brings us back the GMC case against Andrew Wright, where ultimately one or more of his patients did blow the whistle.

    IVI
     
    Firestormm likes this.
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I consider decades of neglect by medical authorities much more worthy of the term abuse than citizens ignoring authoritarian dogma in favor of thinking outside the box. CBT ain't curing nobody.
     
    currer and jace like this.
  4. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I agree that we have been a neglected patient community but do not see how this fits in with this thread.comment. I may be missing your point but think things like this need to be looked into to prevent further abuse.

    Could you explain this further.

    Thanks.

    BarbC:>)
     
  5. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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  6. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    jace likes this.
  7. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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    WNG (Wingfield Nevada Group) was a corporate structure that provided for members of the Seeno family and Harvey Whittemore to own a range of companies between them. Beneficial ownership would have been expressed via shares in WNG. At some point the Seenos loaned Whittemore $18 million, the security for which was Whittemore's shareholding in WNG. I'm not aware of any evidence that Whittemore didn't actually own shares in WNG - is there something specific your are referring to ?
     
  8. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    You wrote it is not in Whittemore's ownership.
     
  9. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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    Yes - the Seenos owned the whole of WNG from point Whittemore took their loan - he could only re-establish ownership if he abided by his loan agreement, same as with a mortgage - failure to meet payments = foreclosure. The difference with company shares is that these involve the potential to control a business, so again from the point the Seenos took Whittemore's shares as collateral, they (the Seenos) became the only people able to exercise a beneficial interest. Technically, had Whittemore repaid the loan, he would have regained his shareholder status, but that hasn't happened and there appears no point subsequent to his taking the Seeno money that he would have qualified as having a beneficial interest in WNG.

    IVI
     
  10. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    So now you claim he transfered ownership?

    For me that is not taking a loan but selling.

    I have mortages but I have not lost ownership of the security and I have complete control. The only thing I can not do, is selling without assent
     
  11. In Vitro Infidelium

    In Vitro Infidelium Guest

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    What I wrote was "effectively Whittemore 'mortgaged' his WNG (..........) interests" . Rights of property usage as defined in your mortage agreements don't exactly transfer well to control of corporate shareholdings. There is clear agreement between the position expressed by the Seenos in now two depositions laid with the Courts, and with the statements made by Whittemor and his lawyers, that from 2008 Harvey Whittemore's position at WNG was that of contracted CEO with the Seenos being full control of the business. Anyone who wants to test this position needs only to read through the Court documents http://www.rgj.com/assets/pdf/J7184397127.PDF and subsequent reports of statements from the two parties.

    In a further source: http://www.rgj.com/article/20120905/BIZ/309050184/New-lawsuits-filed-Whittemore-case?nclick_check=1 Whittemore is quoted: But he said it was “extinguished” when the Seenos refused to allow him to buy back into Wingfield Nevada Group in March 2011. “That was security they used as a device to measure my buyback. They said, ‘We’ll keep your stock as payment,’ ”

    IVI
     
  12. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    IVI, this is interesting and I have learned something here. Thanks.

    • So it sounds like WPI is not legally culpable. That's a shame but this doesn't mean they aren't morally culpable. I feel badly for people who paid for this test and can understand the frustration. I feel awful that people were encouraged to take this test and told to get tested again and again, because a negative didn't mean you were negative. It's a shame there isn't a redress for this.

    Barb C.:>)
     
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  13. Mula

    Mula Senior Member

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    Dr Lombardi was assigned with clinically validating the tests which had then been licensed by the WPI to Redlabs, two companies where Annette Whittemore and Harvey Whittemore respectively would be liable as controllers of those companies as well as the companies themselves. Ownership is a step removed from this process, but I think subconsciously their martial status and ownership will be factored into any future claims. It is unfortunate that at this time a completely accounting of the WPI and Redlabs ownership details are not available, but not required when liability rests with the licensor and licensee.
     
  14. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    What is 'unfortunate' is that these kind of tests are ever made commercially available in the first place - and especially so given the speculative nature of the assumed virus they were purporting to identify. It is scandalous whoever is responsible.

    It may well be that nobody has reported a legal challenge - no customer I mean - because all who spent their hard won cash on said tests did so knowing that there was a big chance this was all some large white elephant - that they knew it could be bogus; but it shouldn't excuse the fact that such things were touted as being 'effective' in the way that they were.

    All the speculation and hype surrounding what XMRV was or could be and how it could be a 'cause' whether or not it was ever actually said (it was certainly strongly hinted at) - this whole debacle should be investigated and ALL those involved should be brought to some sort of account.

    I still find it appallingly shocking that these things are permitted to happen in the USA. That blood can be taken and sent to any old laboratory for a minimum of certification who can effectively hide behind rhetoric and pass the buck for any 'interpretation' on to a physician. It doesn't exclude a physicians culpability in this of course providing they knew the responsibility they undertook in this regard specifically - but patients were I understand having all this done and self-interpreting - they were certainly posting about their results and what they may or may not mean.

    This whole practice to me is dangerous in the extreme. It should never have been allowed to happen. I don't quite understand yet how the case against Mikovits (according to Dr Deckoff-Jones (has anyone got another source for what she claims to be happening here?)) by the WPI includes or does not include any accounting for culpability over the endorsement of testing - it may not - but I would be appalled to think that WPI are hoping to gain from any of this debacle.

    They must shoulder responsibility equally. I read that from Jones as if WPI were blaming Mikovits for all that went wrong concerning the fall-out from Lombardi et al. But I would like to read more from a 'better' source to try and understand what may be another twist in all of this. However, it seems to me that any money should first be used for refunding patients for what has proven to be a complete and utter waste of money.

    If they did that of course I dare say it would open them up to all sorts of claims for compensation...
     
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  15. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Quick question as I don't want to sidetrack this thread.

    If you overuse or misuse antivirals/retroviral medications, can the viruses become drug resistant?

    For example, the overuse/misuse of antibiotics has wrecked havoc by producing, resistance to MRSA which used to be a concern only in hospitals and is now causing infections in healthy people in the community. I don't know if viruses can also become resistant. I suspect they can, but is there something inherent in the makeup of a viruses vs. bacteria, that would make a difference in how long it takes for this resistance to occur?

    Thanks in advance.

    Barb C.:>)
     
  16. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Why would it not????

    Viruses and the host are at war. The virus will try to find a way to win the war.

    Viruses have develped many ways to escape elimination.

    Virusses want to multiply and will try anything they can to accomplisch it.

    One can only guess how long it will take.



     
  17. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I thought they would. Foggy mind and all. So if someone takes an antiviral and it turns out they don't have a virus, it's a chancy thing to take until you know for sure. This is, of course, a rhetorical question.;)

    Barb C.:>)
     
  18. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    If there is no virus , it can not become drug resistant.

    Problem is that almost everybody has latent virusses which can be activated by stressors.

    Futhermore a person can get infected by one or more of numerous wandering virusses
     
    jace likes this.
  19. Mula

    Mula Senior Member

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    Documents that say the tests were clinically validated are accessible on the internet from the WPI and Redlabs, and were published before and after sale. As remarked upon within their own press release, after tests were no longer available, Redlabs still continued to process paid for samples.
     

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