Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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XMRV revisited (Split from Hornig/Lipkin lawsuit thread)

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by Hustler, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    Mod note:

    This post and the ensuing conversation related to XMRV have been moved from the thread discussing Mady Hornig's lawsuit.


    This is quite something....

    Lipkin would try to force conclusions that were not supported by the data....

    This is the guy who said there was no XMRV of any kind or shape or form in ME .....

    Mm.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2017
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  2. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    It's pretty clear that the available tests for XMRV were worthless for distinguishing between those with ME and healthy controls when tested under blinded conditions. Hard to misinterpret that data.
     
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  3. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    Agree
    The tests were not well calibrated for some reason
     
  4. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    3rd samples?
     
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  5. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    On what subject?
     
  6. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    Were the 5 papers on retrovirus?
     
  7. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    Do u mean in the published mbio 2012 lipkin study itself, or do you mean afterwards when they went back to look at montoya s samples again in 2013?
     
  8. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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  9. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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  10. Hustler

    Hustler I m a hustler

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    Accepted in May 2017 I think
     
  11. Kina

    Kina

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    Of course, anything that Hornig has said hasn't been shown to be fact.

    So are you trying to suggest or allude to that Lipkin somehow tried to force some conclusion related to XMRV. He could be guilty of what Hornig is accusing him of but how does that even tie into XMRV.

    Mady Hornig was suggesting that the conclusions Lipkin was trying to influence was on a study they were both directly involved in. I think it would be more recent than 2011.

    Could it be the paracetamol during pregnancy might increase chances of autism study that she was referring to. Definitely not related to XMRV because Lipkin was overseeing the multi-center study of XMRV. I don't believe he did any direct testing of samples.

    So really, you are suggesting he influenced Harvey Alter, Judy Mikovits, William Switzer, Francis Ruscetti, Shyh-Ching Lo, Nancy Klimas, Anthony Komaroff, Jose Montoya, Lucinda Bateman, Susan Levine, Daniel Peterson, Bruce Levin, Maureen Hanson, Afia Genfi, Meera Bhat, HaoQiang Zheng, Richard Wang, Bingjie Li, Guo-Chiuan Hung, Li Ling Hung, Stephen Sameroff, Walid Heneine and John Coffin who were all researchers involved in the multi-center study. The studies were blinded. Lipkin simply reported the results. If you think Lipkin somehow skewed results by convincing all these scientist to misreport results then you are accusing all these researchers of being involved in fraud. How does that even work?

    Is it Judy Mikovits and/or Kent Heckenlively perhaps making shit up again related to this?

    XMRV was contamination.

    Stop looking for things that just aren't there.
     
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  12. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Do we know much more of behind the scenes of this study. Eg are they using different tests for xmrv? It seems these researchers dont think its contamination, surely they know the history behind the xmrv issues in cfs, only a google away. These researchers are away from the bureaucracy and politics of the standard western medicine thats heavily influenced xmrv.
     
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  13. Kina

    Kina

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    What can problems can you identify with this journal entry?

     
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Id like to know how their testing for xmrv is different to lipkins testing, after all lipkin supposedly proved xmrv was a contamination yet these researchers are continuing to study it.

    I assume they have read lipkins previous research on xmrv being a contamination yet they ignored it, in the retroviral research field im sure that the xmrv issue is well know by other researchers.

    Maybe they have scene holes in his work and have found xmrv themselves. I guess the sole judge and jury of lipkin doesnt effect many other countries. Maybe they have seen montoyas work where 85% of his patient group had a retrovirus.

    I dont think research into retroviruses should be shut down just because of the xmrv fiasco, technology is always improving and many things in medicine are unknown. Its quite possible other retroviruses are involved, maybe the defreitus RV.
     
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  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    The actual cause of cfsme is unknown. There are a few drs that have used antiretroviral drugs and seen improvement in symptoms and general function as well as several on this site. Its been mentioned that these drs see a positive response in 50% of patients who use arvs, thats just as good if not better than many other proclaimed treatments, but that number isn't really scientific.

    A drug like viread/tenofovir has a very good safety profile and is used as a prophylactic for hiv.

    Id like to see a drug trial with tenofovir on cfsme patients, in the diagnoses selection id like to see them use the nk function test, RNaseL test and any other immune tests showing abnormalities such as neutrophils and lymphocyte t cells plus i think high viral titres to the herpes viruses which can indicate reactivation due to poor immune function. Not all these tests but something showing immune dysfunction along with the cfsme criteria used.

    Pick a time frame of 6 months and have a blinded placebo group and see how they respond as well as the above mentioned immune tests respond. But id like to see a pro cfs researcher, not someone adament cfs does exist, those people can pick the study to pieces after its done.

    So this study isnt proving the existence of xmrv or some other retrovirus but would give ammunition for further research to look into possible retroviruses or maybe just an unknown virus.

    I see this type of study no different to the valcyte studies or the rituximab study which are really just a stab in the dark. I think we are better off having stabs in the dark with treatments rather than look for the cause first. Research can always work backwards from a treatment to find a cause.
     
  16. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Hornig's lawsuit says Lipkin was cherry-picking data on a very recent autism study. Nothing at all to do with ME/CFS or XMRV.
     
  17. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Lipkin doesnt seem like i guy you can trust or believe.

    I think peoples comments about xmrv and retroviruses are concerned that if he can lie and cheat about one thing, can he really be trusted about his research on xmrv.

    Even his pathogen study was obviously dodgy.

    So even though xmrv isnt mentioned, people are wondering about his other reseach.
     
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  18. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Cherry-picking, while definitely academically dishonest, is a relatively mild form of it. It's also very, very common - pretty much every BPS study of CFS does it, to some extent, for example, yet no one ever really gets in trouble for it. At most it's seen as producing poor quality research, yet the funding continues and the perpetrators don't even take a hit to their reputation for it.

    It's quite a stretch to suggest that cherry-picking in one study also means that data falsification is likely in another study. That would be academic fraud, and there's no indication that cherry-pickers also engage in outright fraud.

    Additionally, there was more than one study showing that the XMRV results couldn't be replicated. If there was fraud, it would have to involved multiple independent teams of researchers. Which is also very unlikely, especially considering that those teams didn't have a background in ME/CFS or any apparent agenda.

    It also wouldn't make sense for Lipkin to fraudulently debunk XMRV, yet also discuss abnormalities he found which led him into further immunological research of ME/CFS.
     
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    So we are putting more trust in a person who is a know to be under scrutiny for his professional and academic misconduct about someone else cherrypicking information.

    Yet with the wave of his hand he dismissed montoyas work of 85% of cfsers with a retrovirus. Montoya is no idiot.

    Im not sure why everyone stands up for lipkin, history of BSing in cfs. Mid 90s he said cfs was a real illness yet didnt do anything to help.didnt hear anything about him in cfs until the xmrv stuff.

    Pathogen study is just a joke. I cant believe with his new toy thats state of the art for infection detection, that over 100 cfs patients only several infections found. Proves they cant find many active chronic infection in humans.

    What happened to the money Vli had raised for lipkins cfs research. I recall a small amount of work done and then he put his hand out again.

    Bad feelings right from the start.
     
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  20. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    I am not saying this is the case, but it is not unheard of that government or interested parties will pay for research to steer the science away from controversial or dangerous to their interest to avoid liability(so let's say that XMRV, was leaked by contamination on a polio vaccine: I made that sample of, the government and the vaccine would be liable (have to pay to all the affected plp) so would not be in their best interest to plp keep digging into it,
    Never was give money to CFS, all of the sudden a lot of money was given to research XMRV. It is suspicious, If I would have the resources I would follow the money and the signature ladder, To see who authorized/funded the study.
    @heapsreal I agree with you, you cannot get funding for a study (without a good basis paper application) and funding is precious resources (for private funding), so this scientists must have XMRV proof on population or wouldn't keep going down that path.
     
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