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XMRV and HIV - why now ?

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by Quilp, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. Quilp

    Quilp Senior Member

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    If more and more studies are carried out around the world confirming the presence of XMRV in the general population, it will be interesting to see how the percentages in differing parts of the world compare.

    If for example America is deemed to have the highest incidence of XMRV per head of population in the world can we say with some certainty that the virus jumped the species barrier in the USA* first ? If so why the USA ?

    Secondly, the consensus amongst virologists is that HIV jumped the species barrier from monkeys to humans. Is this in doubt, has consensus prevailed ?
    Didn't this happen in Africa, do we really know ?

    Humans first left the continent of Africa seventy five thousand years ago, and we have archived documents relating to a myriad of unpleasant illnesses, plagues et al, going back at least five thousand years. Tell me, why have at least two retroviruses come along at once, jumping the species barriers as they have, in such a relatively short period of time ? Are we extremely unlucky ? Or are there more sinister motives at play ? How long have we been experimenting with animals to the extant that we have in the last hundred years, and on the scale we do now ?

    Why have HIV and XMRV appeared now ? Why did we not get HIV in the middle ages, or in the dark ages, the bronze age, the iron age ? The HIV virus has been in monkeys for tens of thousands of years and over time their immunities developed a resistance. One can imagine us having much closer contact with monkey's and other animals seventy five thousand years ago. I am sure primitve man fed on such animals.
    It just seems incredulous to me that we have arrived at these two retroviruses now.

    Finally what are the implications for retroviruses in chemical and biological warfare. Imagine being able to infect, disable entire populations for the rest of their lives and from generation to generation.
    What next ? What other retroviruses might be heading our way ? Who's doing what to whom and why ?

    *assumes tests are standardised, same assays.

    Kind regards, Mark
     
  2. bullybeef

    bullybeef Senior Member

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    My belief, not being particularly medically minded is, these diseases (and probably many more e.g. Elaine DeFreitas CAV) have been with us for centuries, if not millennia. The advances of technology is no coincidence. We can just see and, therefore, find them now.

    I have been discussing on another forum that some believe XMRV may open the door to more undiscovered retrovirus, including the one Elaine DeFreitas found in '91.

    People could have been dying from AIDS related infections for years, but these causes of death were not associated with an unseen force.

    God, knows what we dont know as well. I dont know if this had been mentioned before but the UKs Medical Research Counsel (MRC), who decide of where NHS research funding goes, has now locked away all ME/CFS files until 2070, with no explanation! The problem of having a free national health service is theres penny pinching all over the place.
     
  3. Martlet

    Martlet Senior Member

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    What exactly does this mean? Sorry, I've been out of the UK (except for visits) for almost 16 years so am not up to date on everything happening there.
     
  4. bullybeef

    bullybeef Senior Member

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    The story is here: http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/The-MRC-secret-files-on-ME.htm

    There's quite a lot of content but very revealing.
     
  5. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    HOLY COW.

    And I thought the attitude in the US was bad....
     
  6. George

    George Guest

    Yeah, the UK has some 'splainin to do

    As for the hows and why's, Try this on for a scenario. . .

    O.k. first what do we know about epidemics or pandemics? We know that air born virus' spread very quickly. The H1N1 took 7 months to go world wide. We know that in the case of HIV it took between 60 and 70 years for it to become a pandemic. (Basically 1915 to 1975/85.)http://www.avert.org/origin-aids-hiv.htm

    So using that information how can we extrapolate the spread of XMRV with high rates of cases showing up in the 1980's and 1990's? Well what do we know about XMRV to date?

    We know for a fact that XMRV is transmittable in male semen as noted in the study

    Fibrils of Prostatic Acid Phosphatase Fragments Boost Infections with XMRV (Xenotropic Murine Leukemia Virus-Related Virus), a Human Retrovirus Associated with Prostate Cancer Received 6 February 2009/ Accepted 21 April 2009 by the journal of Virology

    The study states ;

    1. Furthermore, XMRV RNA was detected in prostatic secretions of some men with prostate cancer. The fact that the precursor of SEVI is produced in abundance by the prostate indicates that XMRV replication occurs in an environment that provides a natural enhancer of viral infection, and this may play a role in the spread of this virus in the human population.
    We don't know if it is spread via vaginal fluids at this time since a study has not been done on this but I would think it a pretty good bet that it does.

    We know for certain that it spreads via blood and blood sera or plasma based on

    Detection of an Infectious Retrovirus, XMRV, in Blood Cells of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

    The study states

    We next investigated whether the viral proteins detected in PBMCs from CFS patients represent infectious XMRV. Activated lymphocytes. . . as well as virus preparations from these cells (Fig. 3C), revealed 90- to 100-nm-diameter budding particles consistent with a gamma (type C) retrovirus.

    We also found that XMRV could be transmitted from CFS patient plasma to LNCaP cells when we applied a virus centrifugation protocol to enhance infectivity (6, 14, 15). Both XMRV gp70 Env and p30 Gag were abundantly expressed in LNCaP cells incubated with plasma samples from 10 of 12 CFS patients, whereas no viral protein expression was detected in LNCaP cells incubated with plasma samples from 12 healthy donors (Fig. 4A). Likewise, LNCaP cells incubated with patient plasma tested positive for XMRV p30 Gag in IFC assays (fig. S5B). We also observed cell-free transmission of XMRV from the PBMCs of CFS patients to the T cell line SupT1 (Fig. 4B) and both primary and secondary
    transmission of cell-free virus from the activated T cells of CFS patients to normal T cell cultures (Fig. 4C). Together, these results suggest that both cell-associated and cell-free transmission of CFS-associated XMRV are possible.​

    We don't know if XMRV is spread via saliva since no study has been done on this. HIV is not transmissible through saliva or casual contact so most likely the XMRV retrovirus won't be either.

    Base on the information coming from the founding fathers and mothers of this retrovirus we are hearing that a co-factor is needed to activate the XMRV into an participant in XAND related illnesses. (CFS/ME, autism, atypical MS, cancer, and possibly others) So each of us had to have had the XMRV retrovirus before we were hit by another virus say EBV which activated the XMRV.

    The way I understand it EBV or whatever the activating virus, is stimulated the immune system thus providing host T,B, and NK cells. XMRV likes those cell especially for replication. So EBV or which ever virus provided the opportunity for the XMRV to replicate. That replication process is why those infected never got better.


    Most of us are familiar with the X graph.

    My speculation is that when you are hit by a normal everyday virus that would normally not be a problem for you to deal with, what is actually happening is that you are creating homes for XMRV to move into and raise some kids. And they never leave.

    If the HIV pandemic took around 60 to 70 years to infect enough people to become noticeable in the general population then it's not too much of a stretch to figure that the same rate might apply to XMRV. The XMRV became noticeable in the 1980 and was still noticeable in the 1990's. Meaning by the 1980's a good portion of the population had the virus. So if you are sharing the flu bug in your office then it would stand to reason that a number of individuals in your office would come down with a XAND illness sometimes known as CFS.

    Right now there are possibly 10 million American walking around with XMRV just waiting for the right event to trigger them. My guess is that some of those people will never come down with anything. Some may have stronger immune systems, the right set of genetics to fight it off or perhaps less of a viral load. These are the dark areas that need the light of many studies to say for sure.

    The next question of how did we all become infected and why were their so many outbreaks in the 80's. I have a theory on that and they it's just theory but try it out and see if it fits. Most of the PhD people start the outbreaks in 1934 at Los Angeles General Hospital. I've seen some theory's that go back to 1850 but most start with 1934 and work their way forward.

    Remember that it was between 1975 and 1985 that the HIV pandemic peaked approximately 60 to 70 years after the initial jump of SIV to human HIV. Which puts the initial infections of HIV to somewhere between 1890 and 1915. Now if XMRV followed something like the same path and we look between 60 to 70 years from the peak outbreak years you are look around 1915 to 1930 for an event that would allow for XMRV a variant of MLV or mouse virus to enter the human population undetected and be passed on and on an on. So what was that event?

    I found a good article here that may explain how the jump in species occurred.

    I'll quote from the article

    Little's innovation was the "inbred strain." By mating brother to sister over and over, he created rodents that were genetically alike. In fact, after 20 generations the mice were nearly 99 percent identical. In 1909 he created the first inbred strain, dba, which is still used in research. Before inbred strains, scientists couldn't say for certain whether their results were because of the genetic quirks of a particular mouse or the experiments.

    Is it possible then that one or more of these "inbred strains" carried a mutated form of MLV which would remain unnamed for a century? I don't know for a fact that this is the case however I do know that these mice where shipped to hundreds of laboratories and research facilities around the US and world. by 1929 bigger and better mouse holding facilities were needed. Little persuaded auto industry tycoons Edsel Ford (son of Henry) and Roscoe Jackson, chief of Hudson Motorcar Co., to finance an independent research facility, Jackson Laboratory, near one of their favorite vacation spots, Bar Harbor, Maine. Mouse research bloomed.

    Now the first outbreak is usaly figured as the Los Angeles County General Hospital so let's look at that.

    In 1896 USC medical school and teaching facility opened it closed from lack of funds in 1910 and reopened in 1928. It was affiliated with Los Angeles County General Hospital which opened a new modern county hospital on State Street in 1933 in what is today the Los Angeles County and USC Medical Center.

    So the theory would go like this. . .

    Much like the HIV infection of bush hunters, XMRV infected between 10 and 20 persons in the Los Angeles county hospital by way of the USC teaching and research facility and probably many more persons. The XMRV retrovirus lays dormant in the population being passed on and on, including future generations of children. Until, it is activated by a Co-infection. Hence the 1934 outbreak at L.A. General. Since then hundreds of thousands of people have become infected around the world we now have a pandemic. Manifesting in a variety of ways based on genetic predisposition.

    My family is from LA originally and both my mother and I were born at L.A. General hospital. My mother had uterine cancer at age 28. She was diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder in her 30's. She came down with lymphoma at 39 and died at age 47 in 1991.

    Me I've enjoyed perfect health all my life. Hiking, Biking and generally enjoying all that life has to offer. When I decided to go into teaching at age 36 that's when I started getting sick. Every time I got the "illness of the year" that was going around, Mono or flu or what ever I became a little weaker until finally I got sick and didn't recover at all.

    So anyway that's my Outbreak theory, simple cause and effect no big deal just the way it all worked out. Or if you perfer Colonel Mustard in the Library with a candle stick!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
  7. talkingfox

    talkingfox Senior Member

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    Thanks for this very well thought out post, George.
    Just the sort of extrapolations that fascinate me.

    I'm wondering if the identical mice would also account for the relative simplicity and few variations of the virus that they seem to be finding with xmrv?
     
  8. George

    George Guest

    Seems like it might

    Good Golly Miss Molly I didn't realize what a wall of words that mess is! Eeees, but yeah, I think a the current data argues for a simple source like this as the beginning.
     
  9. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    what stands out to me

    here is the one statement that stands out in your article from the UK.

    “Summarising, the Chairman (Kleinman) predicted that in 10 years time…the central issues in the CFS field would be social rather than medical or scientific, partly driven by the economics and funding of the disability systems in various countries”.


    Mark
     
  10. bullybeef

    bullybeef Senior Member

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    I watched a documentary recently that suggested one of the new suspects from the 1880s Jack the Ripper murders in London, suffered from an condition that was called chronic fatigue. He actually admitted himself into a hospital in the vicinity of the murders. The assumption was this could have been his alibi. Apparently, in those days, if you were sick, you could just go to your nearest hospital and admit yourself for treatment.

    Can you imagine doing that now, especially in the UK. They would laugh you out of the place.

    Just to throw another spanner in the works.

    Unintended spread of a bio-safety level 2 recombinant retrovirus: http://www.retrovirology.com/content/6/1/86

    Apologies if already posted.
     
  11. Martlet

    Martlet Senior Member

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    Thanks BB. I am completely disgusted!
     
  12. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

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    I sent this link or one like it to these virologists that were discussing XMRV online. Someone here at PR had the link. The virologists said, "Oh no, it couldn't be that. Those retroviruses don't pass onto humans." Well, how can anyone know that for sure?

    This would sure explain the fact that our govt. agencies seem to be covering up the truth about CFS. What if that's the information that's locked in the vault at the UK?
     
  13. bullybeef

    bullybeef Senior Member

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    @teejkay - I am not totally sure what is being kept under lock and key, but the following website does do some excellent research in all UK ME/CFS political matters: http://meagenda.wordpress.com/

    Usually, I have been told that anything confidential is usually kept from the public for a minimum of 30 years, so why they need to move that to 70 years is anyones guess. Maybe because the majority of sufferers (and maybe even their children) will have passed away by then.

    I have read that every penny of research into ME/CFS in the UK has gone into the psychiatrics pockets! I asked my consultant about this and he replied, "tell me about it!"

    There are too many controversial issues regarding ME/CFS in the UK and god knows what will happen if, and when, XMRV has been proven the cause of effect of ME/CFS.
     
  14. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I had a blood transfusion following childbirth in 1975, had a severe bout of mumps 10 weeks later where I was so ill, even though I had mumps badly as a child something my GP thought was strange. Four years later I had 2 weeks of flu from which I didn't ever recover, my endocrine and immune system was never right after and the almost daily symptoms of vertigo, and migraines plus endless viruses/infections with lack of energy began. I finally crashed completely in 2000.

    After what has been written above could I have been infected by that transfusion? Looking forward to getting tested but as I live in the UK don't know when.

    Pam
     
  15. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Science magazine the learder

    On a related topic, it has been Science magazine which published the initial discovery and research of all three retroviruses to affect human beings. I think that is interesting--

    Cecelia
     
  16. jspotila

    jspotila Senior Member

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    XMRV transmissibility

    According to the National Cancer Institute in the US, the route of XMRV transmission is unknown. From the NCI XMRV Q&A:

    (emphasis added)

    Also see the Interim Guidelines from NCI

    The DHHS Office of Public Health and Science (also US) made a statement about XMRV and blood safety at the October CFSAC meeting, pdf is here: http://www.cfids.org/xmrv/blood-supply-ophs.pdf

    The DHHS XMRV Working Group is overseeing replication studies and development of blood safety guidelines in the US.
     
  17. Quilp

    Quilp Senior Member

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    'but it might be prudent for potentially infected individuals to refrain from donating blood'

    Am I the only one that finds this quotation disturbing, shocking, even incredulous ?
     
  18. Advocate

    Advocate Senior Member

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    It's puzzling on two grounds, the most obvious being that it's not good to take a chance on passing a serious disease to another person.

    But when anyone tells people with CFS not to give blood, I am puzzled for another reason. How do those who issue the warnings think that people with CFS are going to get themselves to a blood donation center when they are so sick they can hardly stand up?
     
  19. starcycle

    starcycle Guest

    Exactly. That might be in fact one reason why it hasn't spread wider or sooner. I would suspect that donating blood isn't high on the list of priorities of most people with CFS. :p

    As for "why now," just a guess but I think our immune systems are being subtly more damaged now than in the past because of the widespread use of industrial chemicals.

    I think I've also seen speculation that the increase in allergies and asthma could be linked to this "anti-microbial" fetish the corporate chemical industry pushed on americans that led to kids having weaker and more dysregulated immune systems because they didn't have to fight off common things when young that we've always had to. All the anti-microbial soaps, cleaners, etc. are killing that stuff for us, and kids' immune systems don't develop properly or as strongly any more. Together with sealing up new houses and buildings tighter than drums for "energy saving" initiatives that started around the 70s, the public's immunity has really taken a hit.
     
  20. fresh_eyes

    fresh_eyes happy to be here

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    ...And the Band Played On, Part 2: XMRV Edition
     

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