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XMRV and Biotoxin Illness

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by soulfeast, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    I have a friend who according to Shoemaker has biotoxin illness: pathway compromised (VIP, MSH, c4a extremely elevated, etc) BUT no suseptable gene.. she is 17-3-52b not 52a. We have checked and double checked her numbers.

    I have seen here http://esme-eu.com/getfile.php/Files/de Meirleir, K., poster for XMRV workshop[1](1).pdf that c4a can be high with xmrv (which she has not been tested for).

    Is it possible that XMRV can cause the entire biotoxin pathway to be compromised and this look like "biotoxin illness" when it is not?

    Thank you!
  2. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    I think this illness is causes biotoxin illness.
  3. mhj

    mhj

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    Hi ;)

    Geneset 17-3 is not in suscept for Dr. Shoemakers DR/DQ patten. The last ec 52 c whatever you can ignore, its connets with DR (see WIKI), herin y can ignore that, okei?

    You only refer to one of the geneset here, is she a homozogotic according to her both genesets? so what is her second geneset?

    Well for other readers the geneset mean 17-3: DRB1*17 DQB1*03. The B is refering to the beta- chain.

    I didnt understand why y put up the De Meirleir link, because it is not telling anything relating to this anyway.

    About C4a, so its that mesurement/test taken in plasma (Shoemaker and Quest) and not in serum, so all values on that one cant be compared.

    I cant give you some links, its in norwegian so y have to use translator. Some of it y will understand even in norwegian, and the the referance links is in english....

    I have all this test that Shoemaker recomand exept from the MRSA test.

    Info about HLA genes: http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=1009

    Testing for Biotoxin: http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=384

    What is biotoxins? http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=494 here y can use the homepage for Shoemaker.

    Info about the different test (hard core stuff :eek:): http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=588

    Report from presentation: http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=636 y probably have seen this before :)

    treatment of biotoxins and som ex from us patiens (one in the table is mine - hurray so happy...): http://lhkpasientfora.org/?p=937

    Not all of the treatmentoptions is included in this blogtext. (like EPO for low VEGFs if y have add. have low Hb for instance).

    Agree that lots of this due to biotoxin or the imune systeme cant cleare it off and... and...

    ;)
  4. mhj

    mhj

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    Okei just a short reply on that one, beacause we are full og co-infections, and that creates biotoxin in the body. What Shoemaker found was that he discover a pattern in the HLA DR/DQ genes that assosieted with biotoxin related diaseses. Like mold that the gene cant clear.....

    My GP says that patiens in Norway looks more like Cheneys patiens than Shoemakers patiens - why? maybe we will find a answar too that - i dont know. Shoemaker had'nt a good answer him self so.... lots of Q and unknown A!!!!

    :)
  5. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    Maybe it's a result of the particular biotoxin that people are exposed to.

    Shoemaker self-defines himself as mostly moldy buildings, and attracts people who suspect they are exposed.

    My suspicion is that severe, Tahoe style, epidemic ME/CFS is associated with a different sort of biotoxin. Maybe it's highly prevalent in Norway.

    That would be an interesting topic for exploration.

    Best, Lisa
  6. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Thank you, mhj. She is not carrying one of Shoemaker's suseptable genes. She is 1-5 (low msh) for the other. Yet, her biotoxin pathway is definitely compromised (low vip, low msh .. though I think I read from Shoemaker that these can be compromised by viral infections or may not improve because of viral infection, sky high c4a.)

    I was linking the De Meirleir info because he is noting a rise in c4a with xmrv as you are addressing in your follow up comment (thank you). I wil look though your links and it may take some time to digest the info.. thank you!

  7. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    She is in Massachusetts. She got sick or at least sicker when living in a damp basement apartment.

  8. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Actually, still dont get how on can NOT have a mold or any other biotoxin suseptable gene and have biotoxin illness markers as plan as day. ???

    I can see being sick in an environment that is "moldy" but when no one else is and you dont have one of the biotoxins HLA types???

    Can other factors influence the biotoxin markers and effect the VCS test.. and if not, can other factors OTHER THAN SHOE's HLA types lead to biotoxin illness???
  9. Forebearance

    Forebearance Senior Member

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    Hi soulfeast,

    That is sure an interesting question about whether XMRV could affect the immune system in some way that would cause people to get biotoxin illness.

    It makes me wonder if XMRV could possibly make biotoxin illness worse in people who have a susceptible HLA-DR haplotype, and make people without the susceptible genetics more prone to getting biotoxin illness.

    It definitely feels like XMRV and biotoxin illnesses could be related somehow. Maybe XMRV inflames the complement part of the immune system, which biotoxins also do. The high C4a is basically a scream from the complement immune system.

    If I'm remembering correctly, Dr. Shoemaker said that anyone can get biotoxin illness. But people who don't have the susceptible genetics can get well once they move out of the toxic place or treat the Lyme disease or treat the pfisteria, etc. People with the susceptible genetics don't get well even after they get away from or treat the source of the toxins. For them it turns into a chronic illness. Their immune system has a "blind spot" that prevents it from tagging and eliminating the toxins.

    So if your friend has those blood test results, she has biotoxin illness. But if her immune system has no blind spots, she should start getting well as soon as she gets away from the source of the toxins.

    Is she living in a totally non-moldy place now? Is she starting to feel better? All the stuff that Dr. Shoemaker prescribes should heal her, according to his theory.

    Stupid damp basement apartments. They should be illegal!

    Forebearance


  10. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Thank you, Forbearance,

    She has decided to move out of her apartment which has a musty smell behind some walls, gets worse with rain, humidity.

    Interesting thing for me is that my husband who has lyme and also ahs a "dreaded" per Shoemaker is not sick and I am. So is XMRV the factor. He has had as many or more mold exposures than I have.. I became sick after we married. So exposed to many of the same environments.

    I can see biotoxin illness triggering xmrv for sure. Makes perfect sense to me.. but... how does he have lyme and a "dreaded" and live in the same house, sleeping in the same room next to the bathroom with the stachy and not be sick?

  11. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

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    FWIW I have ME/CFS and I have none of the shoemaker susceptible genotypes. I also didn't respond to taking questran or moving my location which I did just to see if it would help. Its theoretically possible that there are other genetic types that react to other similar biotoxins that aren't accounted for by shoemaker's types. It would be interesting to know if he has updated research.
  12. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Acer, has anything helped you at all?

    Where did you move to?

    You're one of the few people who doesn't seem to have a biotoxin connection. I don't know that we can attribute getting sick after a fish dinner or living in Ann Arbor as being related.

    I think about you a lot, therefore.

    Best, Lisa
  13. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

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    Not much has effected my symptoms for the positive. The antibiotic Zithromax seems to have helped a little bit for a while. I have noticed that certain things have the tendency to make me very jittery/anxious that are supposed to be helpful. Examples of these were a trial of IVIG and also treatment with Rifaximin and VSL3. The Rifaximin made me feel more tired and out of it and the VSL3 made me really hyper (but still tired). I was put on the IVIG by my CFS specialist because he had seen it help some of his patients. The Rifaximin/VSL3 was in response to a lab test that showed leaky gut/bacterial overgrowth.

    Oh I also had a trial of EEG biofeedback that left me feeling worse. But I'm not sure that has much to do with anything other than that the person doing it didn't really know what they were doing (at the time I didn't realize this). I'd really like to find out what happened with that, however.

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