James Coyne “lays waste” to PACE trial in Edinburgh
Sasha summarises Professor James Coyne's recent no-holds-barred talk on the PACE trial and points you to the slides, video, audio and transcript.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Xeno/estrogens link to CFS/Fibromyalgia - Success!!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gestalt, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes:
    286
    Is it the use of pre and probiotics that has got you to the level your at now?

    What are/were your symptoms?

    Thanks
     
  2. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes:
    275
    Canada
    Yes, and chaga maybe.
    My old symptoms are listed at the beginning of this thread. My current symptom is just straight up lack of energy.
     
  3. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    3,479
    Likes:
    3,032
    UK
    @Gestalt
    can I ask you did you suffer from MCS, food/supplement intolerances, allergies before you started on this regime?
     
  4. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes:
    275
    Canada
    MCS, no. food/intolerance's allergies yes, all my life.
     
  5. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    3,479
    Likes:
    3,032
    UK
    Thanks - I'm trying to make sense of all the pieces.
     
  6. Cog71

    Cog71

    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    52
    Los Angeles
    WOW. Just read this entire thread. I had come along the same path as you (albeit with a lot less detail and understanding) but I was on Accutane too around 15 years ago and wondering if it had payed a part.

    On a separate journey I was researching CYP3A4. I haven't been able to make head or tail of anything I got back on my 23andme, but will do so now given the site info provided.

    But my point is this: I came to the same conclusion as you, only it was PROGESTERONE, not estrogen I decided was the culprit. For various reasons - empirical rather than chemical.
    1) I have always gone loony around day 15 of my cycle - right when progesterone kicks in and peaks.
    2) I was twice put on the progesterone only pill and it nearly killed me
    3) I did many, many IVF cycles, and not only did I inject massive amounts of progesterone over a period of many years (which some doctors believe can get stuck in fat cells for up to six years), but we had several failed cycles with perfect embryos, where subsequent tests appeared to show that my progesterone level on day 21 was low - despite doubling up on suppositories and IM injections.
    4) I've just started SUPER low dose HRT. The estrogen patch went on a few days before I started the progesterone and I felt really good. Then I started supplementing progesterone and it was like going back to my worst ever days of fibro! I was writhing around on the bed begging my husband to rub my legs, desperate for relief. So - two days ago I stopped the progesterone (and kept the estrogen patch on) Lo and behold I feel much, much better today!
    5) I tried DIM about a year ago and had a violent reaction to it - it seemed to make my symptoms a lot worse. I thought herx perhaps, but I stopped anyway but now I'm wondering if maybe estrogen opposes progesterone and therefore by taking DIM I was changing my estrogen/progesterone ratio - using the balance towards progesterone. Perhaps?

    Anyway - everything I've read says that CYP3A4 does the same thing to progesterone as it does to estrogen. Is there a reason why a) you decided to concentrate on estrogen (xenestrogens) specifically or b) that it shouldn't be progesterone that is the problem for me?

    PS - This is a genuine question. I'm a long way behind you on the chemistry, but upping my estrogen seems to be working. I'd hate to be moving in the wrong direction! Any input would be gratefully received!
     
  7. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    Sorry to hear your terrible experience with DIM, it certainly alarms me. I am considering DIM for myself until I read another lady online cautioning people with low estrogen. Your experience verified it without doubt for me. If you research online, you will find hormone remedies working well for majority of women, definitely will cause harm to a very few like myself, completely progesterone intolerant. Hormone issues for majority of women are complex to even skilled doctors; much much worse for a handful minority.
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    I tried 10mg DIM a couple of months ago and I could only think about suicide on it (took it only 2x). Now I finally started Xdermal estrogen and feel better. I was supposed to pair it with Xdermal progesterone as well, but it makes me worse. This is the 3rd time I try Xdermal progesterone and feel awful. It feels like it creates or mobilizes oxalate/uric acid tissue deposits.
     
  9. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    Wow, thanks for letting me know, it all makes sense now.

    I am convinced that @Cog71, you and I belong to the 3-5% women, who are INTOLERANT of PROGESTERONE. In another words, our own hormone makes us SICK.

    I only "touched" progesterone twice in my life. Once, I was put on birth control pills for the the first time with the lowest progesterone in, it almost drove me insane. I had to came off it within days on my own without knowing what the culprit was , until years later when I was connecting dots on my own again, apparently neither did my doctor who prescribed it. The second time is with vitex, which has pro-progesterone property that if you read online, majority of women sing praise while very few ladies complained its awful suicidal effect. I went ahead and in two days, I experienced a strong sense of depression, with which I was not familiar, even though I always thought I had been fatigued and depressed ever since I started menstruation at 12. After that experience, I realized what I have had is better described as malaise not depression.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    Actually I tolerated the pill fairly well (until I had to quit it due to thrombosis), and also the 1st round of progesterone. What really pushed my estrogen levels into oblivion has been the Paleo Diet - no PABA and not enough Manganese.
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    Coincidentally I just read the most intriguing comment to a Mercola's article:
     
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    Some recognized side-effects from Progesterone replacement therapy:
     
  13. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    Thanks for sharing!

    In my case, progesterone is harmful while estrogen is beneficial. I know I may benefit even more from estrogen supplement in higher dosage (currently I am using Life Flo Estriol-care cream), but there is always concern of estrogen induced ovary and breast cancer risk.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    @Asklipia @alicec @jjxx
    One could think that using progesterone replacement could have a B6-sparing effect since B6 is involved in estrogen breakdown and progesterone synthesis, but apparently in some people it completely blocks B6 metabolism.
     
  15. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    That's something I would like to look into. Could you link your reference(s)? Thanks a lot!
     
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    My starting point is always the link in my sig "Balancing Nutrients", they generally don't cite references, but I have repeatedly found confirmation of the info on nutrition books and indexed studies at PubMed.
     
  17. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    Yes, I know that website loaded with very detailed info related to almost every single vitamins and minerals and I often find it valuable. But at times, I found myself skeptical about some of their information. One example as fellows,

    copy and paste from their website:

    .....While B-Vitamins may be helpful for high estrogenic-types of PMS
    (volatile, angry moods), larger amounts may worsen low estrogenic,
    depressive-types of PMS, with a greater potential of causing suicidal
    episodes in prone women, in which case single B-Vitamins need to
    be specifically matched to be effective.....

    That's complete untrue in my case! I know if I did follow their conclusion, I could have ruined my liver and myself completely. Luckily, I do listen to my own body, the only supplement has helped me in the past is multiple pills of B-100 complex and I must double the dosage when I am entering the second half of my cycle, where my progesterone starts to build up while estrogen goes down. I don't want to bore you with my case. Simply put, with cyclic processing/disposal of sex hormones involved in menstruation, our liver demands sufficient amount of B vitamins month after month.
     
  18. jjxx

    jjxx

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    36
    I also would like to add that I am a big "fan" of liver and gut health as you. Nutrition is foundation; Good nutrition comes from healthy digestive system. Not "putting cart in front of horse" is crucial in the battle of CFS imho.
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    I have been repeatedly harmed by nutritious food. Take something as innocent as raw carrots, or a squeezed lemon, or avocado, blueberries...
    Raw carrots and lemon have potent anti-estrogenic properties, as does quecetin (aromatase inhibitor). Plus the plant hormones (salicylates) can be pretty poisonous to susceptible individuals. Someone wrote a book about salicylates and named it "The helthier I eat, the sicker I get" - I haven't read it, but this describes me :aghhh:
    Someone close to me got the following effect from B6: she is just overcoming a mild case of PCOS (so was androgen dominant, in any case she isn't estrogen dominant). One or two days before menstruation she took B6 and had a severe depression, so I think it matches the description.
     
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,943
    Likes:
    2,788
    Perhaps progesterone intolerance is a symptom of low niacin?

    Personally I do not benefit from dietary/supplement advice by Ray Peat, but think that nevertheless some things are worthwhile giving a look.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page