Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gestalt, Jun 9, 2012.
I see you found my crummy hand-drawn sketch!
Very interesting post.
So that's your diagram!
I have a couple of questions for anyone that might know:
a. which form of estriadol in the diagram is the active form ?
b. the quinone form - would it be part of the plasma estradiol measurement ?
Thanks for the info Rich! How high in mg is a "fairly high dosage"? And then for how long?
Hahaha, yes I found it in one of the yahoo groups. Your hand-drawn sketch helped me solve this puzzle. I am very grateful for it!
These exact supps (plus d glucarate) were recommended to me on another forum. I've had them a couple of weeks but put off starting as I was testing my responses to some other things.
I'm keen to try them now after reading your account. I also had ME onset in adolescence, and developed FM 4 - 5 years later.
I'll update here if I have a positive response.
Hi Gestalt. That is amazing! Glad you had success.
Can I tell if I need these supps from my plasma estrogen(s) test?
I have double comt downregulation, but my plasma estrogens seemed OK.
Is this still worth giving a shot?
Yes it's still worth trying, because presumably Xenoestrogens are metabolized with those supplements as well.
The interesting thing that happend with my gf is, that her problems first began when she was 10 years old. That is when for the first time in a gir'ls life estrogen production goes through the roof. She's either producing too much, or not breaking it down fast enough, or base xenoestrogen load is high, because it almost killed her. Even now her skin symptoms peak at the halfwaypoint of her cycle, when estrogen also peaks.
I am also guessing she is on a low-point down swing of progesterone production, according to the dotted line above.
I have yet to try any aromotase inhibitors. I know some are phytoestrogens....which makes no sense to me, and chrysin appears to have low absorption rates. Absorption can be increased with piperine, however piperine inhibits CYP3A4 which is one of the primary ways estrogen is metabolized! So that combo which I see in a lot of male testosterone boosting supplements seems to work against itself and is counterproductive.
There are pharmaceutical grade armotase inhibitors, but I am a bit leery about those. Do you have any recommendations? I know some are used by bodybuilders on steroids, and also by women to fight breast cancer.
The DIM, I3C and glucrate has boosted my energy and well being about 10-15% i'd say. So I'm at about 80-85% now. Once I get the results of all my genetic tests hopefully I can fine-tune myself to 100%.
Interesting about piperine, and good to know! I noticed that some of the DIM enhanced "formulas" inclusing cofactors contained it.
White button mushrooms were recommended to me as an aromatase inhibitor. There are studies that show their effectiveness but I know not everyone does well with eating fungi. I do well with them. I only eat a couple of handfuls several times a week so I can't say whether I'm taking anything close to an effective dose. They're doing me no harm anyway!
So far I'm tolerating the trio of supplements well too. Your original post was very timely Gestalt....thanks.
I'll update if I notice improvement in any symptoms.
Thanks to Rich for the sketch too.
A bit of information on indole-3-carbinol including effective dose and safety concerns.
Hummm. I am trying to digest this information as I will be put on estrogen and progesterone for a couple months. My levels come out fine but they are using these two meds to support a non-related CFS/ME condition.
I recently researched endocrine disrupting chemicals and their effects on human development patterns. These endocrine disruptors do most damage when they are first encountered in vitro. This is because hormones are being primed for later cues during adolescence and puberty. When the body receives those hormonal cues later in life (to start puberty, for instance) things tend to go wrong. I believe that is why girls get signs of puberty earlier, etc.
Would DIM lower estrogen levels or simply change the metabolism? Would DIM affect estriol or just estradiol? What about estrone? Isn't estrone the "bad" estrogen?
Yeah i was thinking along the lines of pharmaceutical drugs rather than natural supplements to as aromatase inhibitors (AI) but I was also thinking about the idea of a hpta "re-start" to get maybe get out the negative high estrogen loop.
Main types of AI are Anastrozole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastrozole) and Letrozole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letrozole). Letrozole is very efficient at reducing E2 by something crazy like 90% so this would be too much, bodybuilders can't cope with it as it drives oestrogen too low.
In terms of htpa re-start, doctors specialising in this area (and bodybuilders) have been using SERM's such as clomid and tamoxifen for years.
After my first day taking DIM and Calcium D Gulcarate my fatigue has increased. Could this be detox?
Re-posting this here due to relevance:
Seems DIM may be superior to I3C and I3C may actually not be so good for men....
"In animals, I3C has been shown to promote more rapid metabolism and inactivation of testosterone (33). A recent comparison of I3C and absorbable diindolylmethane in an independently conducted safety test in animals (34) showed that at typical human doses, only I3C promoted increased liver enzyme activity responsible for testosterone metabolism (35).
At higher doses, dramatic increases in these and other undesirable enzyme activities were seen with I3C, but not with diindolylmethane. I3C typically interacted with enzyme subtypes and other substances, including: CYP2B1 (testosterone metabolism)....
....Based on animal and human testing, diindolylmethane is again preferable to I3C in the setting of men’s health. Men using diindolylmethane can minimize or avoid accelerating their testosterone metabolism, especially the unwanted conversion of testosterone into estrogen.
In a safety study of the two phytonutrients (11), only I3C increased the activity of "aromatase" (CYP19), the enzyme responsible for converting testosterone into estrogen. In contrast, supplementation with absorbable diindolylmethane resulted in reports of improved prostate function based on reduced nighttime urination in symptomatic older men."
So i found the conversion rate for I3C into DIM on this link. Therefore it is much more advantageous to take just DIM.
"When I3C is used as a supplement, no more than 10% is converted to diindolylmethane, even under optimum pH conditions in the upper intestine (duodenum)."
Also, I recently came across this.
" This difference explains a number of the side effects seen with I3C. Doubling the typical dose of I3C from 400 to 800 mg/day causes dizziness, unsteady gait, and signs of nervous system toxicity in humans (23). Similar side effects were observed during I3C use in animals (24)." - source
Some of the reaction products of I3C breakdown into various toxins such as Indolocarbazole, Ascorbigen, Linear Trimer, Cyclic Trimer & Indole-3-acetonitrile. (source)
Therefore I have stopped taking I3C and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It may do more harm than good.
I just wanted to report that I do feel better since starting (I'm taking all 3 supps).
I had reason to believe my body was trying to detox estrogens (and/or xenoestrogens perhaps) as the result of another protocol. Early indications seems to be that they're beneficial in my case. I've been taking them 3 1/2 days.
I noticed within a day an increased need for magnesium. I also woke feeling much better. Hit by a scooter as opposed to a freight train . Widespread body pain, which I had put down to impaired detoxification is significantly better, but the specific fibromyalgia trigger points are no better yet.
I think I have a problem with oestrogen too... Unfortunately I would probably react to the soy in DIM.
Though there doesn't seem to be much info about it, apparently K2 can be an aromatase inhibitor. One article cited this study:
A calcium-deficient diet caused decreased bone mineral density and secondary elevation of estrogen in aged male rats-effect of menatetrenone and elcatonin.There was another K2 study posted elsewhere. I can't really get my brain around most of this, but there you go.
High vitamin D is supposed to help too, so I guess that fits in with the calcium thing. I also read about using probiotics to counter β-glucuronidase in the gut, or even a daily raw carrot salad...
iacyi, I don't know what an aromatase inhibitor is, but are you saying K2 can be helpful with estrogen metabolism or hamful? Thank you!
I read that for those with hormone-sensitive conditions it may be a bad idea to take DIM.
I've had issues before where I took something that was supposed to help lower estrogen or help with metabolizing it and instead it worsened by hormone-sensitive symptoms, so I'm very wary of these types of things.
I recently read about people who have trouble metabolizing estrogen and that there is a lab test for this? Does anyone else know about it? If I remember right the person who'd written the info recommend DIM and other supplements, but I'm still a bit unsure. On WebMD it says it's possible that it may act like an estrogen, and I've had trouble before with other supplements that come with that warning. Any thoughts?
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