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Would a healthy person get no bad effects from Miyarisan?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by HealingSun, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    I recently took Clostridium Butyricum (Miyarisan), and found I got some unpleasant effects that reminded me of when my M.E. was much worse (so think I will restart at a much lower dose and build up).

    I think this could indicate I still have a bad bacteria problem in my gut, but I want to make sure it's not just a bad reaction to Clostridium Butyricum (i.e. my body just finds it toxic).

    Would a healthy person with no bad bacteria overgrowth would get no bad effects from Miyarisan?
     
  2. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    Can you describe your bad reaction to the Miyarisan in a bit more detail?
     
  3. BBQGirl

    BBQGirl

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    No idea how it may affect a healthy person, but when I first started taking it, I took 3 of the regular (18 small tablets = a dose) and OH MY what a war was going on in my tummy and below after just an hour or so. I felt very lucky that I did not take more to begin with, since I may have exploded from the pressure :eek:) I had no real ill affects, other than the gas and bloating. I took it to mean that the C. butyricum was working on the bad buggers in my system and indeed my digestive system benefited as a whole after a while and I worked up to taking more.

    Take Care, Ginger
     
  4. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Hi, yes - the main thing was pain all over, especially in thighs. A different kind of pain, that I associate with episodes - malaise/nausea-type feeling in muscles/pain feeling all over.

    Also a fuzzy head, flu-like feeling, wiped out wanting to lie down, start of migraine headache. Some inflammation shown by sore eyes.

    I had all these symptoms, but not as bad as they could be - around 40% of max.

    I took 1 strong miyarisan (same as 6 small ones) with breakfast, lunch, and dinner, to a total of 3 strong (18 small) in one day, then I stopped.

    I was fine until the evening when the feelings started to come up. Sleep was disturbed, then the feelings peaked the next day, then slowly ramped down and today 4 days later I'm about 90% recovered.

    I'm thinking maybe I had a histamine/immune reaction to the endotoxin release from killed bad bacteria.

    However, I didn't get a large gut response. I had soreness in my intenstines, but nothing too bad. However, I think it might just be the way I am, that I tend not to feel a lot of pain in my intestines even if there are issues there. I had a little bit of gas, and a bit more than my usual 1-2 BMS per day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    Snowdrop likes this.
  5. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Thanks for sharing your experience. You took the same amount as me, 3 regular (I spaced them out over a day). Interesting though that you had a lot of stomach reactions but not much else, whereas I had a lot of the systemic issues and just a little stomach pain. Perhaps that means my gut lining is compromised, and the endotoxin is coming out and creating all over body issues for me. Which would mean I am very much in need of gut healing which butyrate would do ...

    It's all complete guess work though, I really don't know.

    Ginger, how much are you taking now, how did your digestion improve, and did you get any systemic benefits at all?
     
  6. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Hi HealingSun - I have dose dependent flares from all the many probiotics I've tried. I have read hundreds of reviews from people about probiotics they have taken on iherb, amazon etc. and very few have bad reactions. My view on why, is the very thing you have stated, endotoxins from a compromised gut.

    I have also read countless reviews of people that have taken very high doses of berberine (1,000-1500mg a day) and other antibiotic herbs and again, very few suffer the devastating die-off that I or many with cfs would. If I took 1,000mg of berberine, I would feel like I had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel!:D

    Jim
     
  7. BBQGirl

    BBQGirl

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    Hi Healing Sun,

    For me it was just a half brain dead stab in the dark attempt to help myself that turned into a very good thing (better if I had kept it up though) I figured after reading quite a bit that I most likely had SIBO and went on to trying the Gut Dr's (Dr Grace Liu) ideas since they rang the most true to me (heal the gut to help all parts of the body get well or at least better LOL) So I loosely followed https://thegutinstitute.com/cure-sibo and made up my own bionic fiber with what I could get a hold of and my tummy would tolerate (no potato starch or inulin for me at least right then) and rotated in some other optional fibers (plantain, larch tree etc.) I decided to use C. butyricum as my primary probiotic after reading so much about it here. I also rotated in the Kroger generic brand for Align, which worked our good price wise and for my gut. I also rotated in some other probiotics, but can't think of which right now.

    Improvement took a good few months to start to show up well. When eating before I could hardly eat for 10 min (not nearly finishing my meal) without getting in horrible pain in my stomach as if I had eaten rocks, this would last at least an hour. That was totally gone. I was not having the amount of gas that I was previously, which was considerable at times, I was not having acid reflux, I was not having a terrible time with IBS- A like usual and I was back to my younger self of being up for 15 min and taking care of bathroom business with a perfect poo (many, if not most days. Which was a huge change from either being constipated or have a horrible case of the runs before). And as a side benefit I lost my love handles! Which was strange to have to begin with, since I was at the time about 108# and I am 5'4".

    I had also been taking MFolate and B 12 sublinguals and felt a lot better in general due to both so can't say just what was attributed to which for sure, but the C butricum did a world of good for my digestion from one end to the other. I started at 3 and over a couple weeks (I was able to move up very quickly after the first few days of bloating) to taking a small hand full a couple times a day, which was likely a bit over the 18 count dose. Then I went to taking just 3 a day and a handful once a week to 10 days. Which sadly I stopped and went down hill. Take Care, Ginger
     
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  8. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Ooof, painful! :eek: :lol:

    It really does seem to point to the gut being a big factor for some of us with M.E.

    It's encouraging to have this chance to improve! If I could displace/kill all the baddies, repopulate with a nice variety of goodies (while avoiding lactate producers and histmaine increasers), and heal up my gut lining, maybe I could feel much better.

    I also felt awful on strong antibiotics, and then better for a while afterwards.

    I hope for big gains on Miyarisan.

    I only wish to be able to do it slowly enough that I can not make myself worse during the treatment. I'm thinking of doing half a tablet, every other day (half a tablet regular is 3 small ones), and possibly re-seed with some goodies on the other day.
     
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  9. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Ginger, thanks for your reply, what a great result and a lucky+clever stab in the dark. Very interesting it took you months to get good benefits, I will bear that in mind with my own experiments.

    I have taken probiotics in the past with varying results but there are so many new ones coming up now.

    I am interested in trying mutaflor, and also algin.

    It's fantastic that you made your digestion like that of a younger self again. It would be good if it could stay that way for you without ongoing supplementation.

    I wonder what it would take to remodel our gut environment to the extent that it is colonised and becomes part of us, without any supplements needed ...
     
  10. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Overall, I am thinking that yes, surely a healthy person would not react badly to Miyarisan.

    My bad reaction must be a big clue to show me what I need to do next to get better.

    My plan is to wait until I feel better, then restart Miyarisan at 1/2 tablet (3 small ones) per day, every other day.
    The other day I will take a different probiotic (non-histamine increasing) to try and repopulate.
    I will very slowly increase the Miyarisan over weeks and months.
    Later I might try adding potato starch.

    I wonder if this is a good plan?
     
  11. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I have improved quite a lot in the last 5 months treating my gut. Like you say though, it's a slow process and if I try to rush it, I get sick from the die off. I'm all set with probiotics for now, although I am thinking about trying the Miyarisan at some point. My sibo symptoms are all but gone now!

    I used to get the bloating and gurgling etc, sometimes within 10 minutes of eating, I no longer get those. That just happened in the last few weeks or so. So hooray for the small victories!:) I'm thinking most of my dysbiosis is now in the large intestine, because I still have IBS to some degree, although it has improved a lot.

    Jim
     
  12. BBQGirl

    BBQGirl

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    Well yes, it sounds like a good plan, but don't marry it :rolleyes: Which is to say, if it appears not to be working don't think that keeping dedicated to it is a good idea. And just because it does not work for you at this time, does not mean that you can't revisit it at some other time and it may work better.

    And one thing I have learned from hanging our here TAKE NOTES!! Sorry to yell, especially if that is redundant to you, but that is a singular important thing that I did not realize was so darn important, that I wish I had learned earlier. Trust me, you won't remember.

    Just buy yourself a dedicated notebook, jot down things about what you are taking, how you are sleeping, energy or the lack there of or a change of any kind. Doesn't have to be a long thing, just quick ideas so you can get a better idea of what may (or not) be working for you.
    Good luck, Ginger
     
  13. themjay

    themjay

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