1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Ergonomics and ME/CFS: Have You Hurt Yourself Without Knowing It?
Having a chronic illness like ME/CFS can make it hard to avoid problems that come from bad ergonomics. Jody Smith has learned some lessons the hard way ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Working to better understand 23andMe results

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by future_man, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    I'm trying to better understand my 23andMe results pertinent to the methylation pathway. Here's what I've been able to come up with so far (from reading Valentijn's recent comments on other posts):

    VDR Taq +/+ : "suggests that you're slow in producing catecholamines"

    MTR A2756G +/+ : "indicate a need for methylB12, and homocysteine may tend to be elevated"

    COMT V158M +/-, COMT H62H +/- : "Being heterozygous for COMT means you don't have the fast or slow versions for breaking down catecholamines, but are somewhere in the middle. "

    MTRR A66G +/- : "results in higher homocysteine and lower methionine. B12 supplementation may help. If sensitive to methyl groups at all, hydroxyB12 should be a safer form than methylB12. If taking methylB12, be careful of potassium issues."

    CBS C699T +/- : "results in slightly faster disposal of homocysteine. This is a very small up-regulation, and should not result in sulfur or ammonia problems."

    CBS A360A +/- : Relevant?

    I also have 4 NOS +/- SNPs. Does this indicate issues around Nitrous Oxide?

    I've attached my entire LiveWello report if anyone cares to dig deeper.

    I'm currently working my way slowly through the early stages of a methylation protocol, recently started on mild thyroid support with NDT, and have been working to address/heal adrenal dysfunction for the last two months. Things seem to be slowly improving, but not quite as fast as we all seem to hope they do. :)

    Thank you for any help/support.

    Attached Files:

  2. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Taking it a step farther for those interested, I've attached my current nutrition and supplementation plan with the hope that it might be helpful.

    Attached Files:

  3. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    hi future_man,

    I like your automated-Vale-bot! :cool: Valentijn

    ---
    I believe that I have read that one should never take Vitamin C with methylfolate, as it will negate it. I think that I have also read that methylfolate should not be taken at the same time as methylcobalamin/hydroxocobalamin. So your before-lunch supplements might be cancelling each other out...? And they are incredibly important.

    I've seen these interactions mentioned on several threads here, but couldn't point you to a particular thread. A search will probably bring them up.

    ---
    I'd recommend, for further information on methylation generally, my big list of methylation links --- the link to it is below my signature line -->
  4. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Hi Bluebell,

    Thanks for the reply. This was the sort of feedback I was hoping for when posting my supplementation schedule.

    I had not heard/read that Vit C could interfere with the methylation process, so I did a little research after reading your post and came up with a few hits. In particular a recent study saying that Vitamin C can reduce methylation in embryonic stem (ES) cells?

    http://www.epibeat.com/article-summ...-and-dna-demethylation-in-mouse-es-cells/857/

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12362_F4.html

    I'm not sure how relevant it is in my case, but it seems like it couldn't hurt to make sure that I space the Vitamin C out a bit from the B12s and 5-MTHF. Its been a bit tricky to make sure that I'm getting the timing of all supplements worked out, and at the same time try to only take the lowest effective doses of everything involved.
  5. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    I have seen this mentioned quite a few times, but can't find specific threads here - the search function is difficult here because it won't accept words that are less than 4 letters long, so the "C" in "Vitamin C" goes out the window!

    I've had a look at mthfr.net, Dr. Ben Lynch's site:

    2 short threads:
    http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/vit-c-and-b12/
    http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/vitamin-c-and-b12-2/

    -----
    This is from Ben Lynch's MTHFR protocol page: http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

    "Vitamin C and Methylcobalamin Interaction: When taking methylcobalamin, it is necessary to not exceed ingesting 450 mg of vitamin C concurrently. This is due to the destruction of methylcobalamin when in the presence of more than 500 mg of vitamin C.

    Methylfolate is best absorbed on an empty stomach or sublingually.
    • Active B12 5000
      • provides 5,000 mcg of methylcobalamin per sublingual tablet
      • be sure to take this away from MTHFRade or vitamin C by 20 minutes
      • important to supply methylcobalamin first before methylfolate to prevent methyl trapping
      • break the tablet into fifths and place 1/5th under the tongue upon waking"
    ---
    In the comments area, a reader's question to Dr. Ben:

    Dan2 (not the same Dan above) October 28, 2012 at 8:25 pm # Reply
    Dr. Ben,
    You stated above that vitamin C destroys methylb12 if more than 500mgs is taken. I can’t find any reference or study that confirms this and believe I have subclinical scurvy, so may need to take high doses of C.
    Do you have a reference for the C-methylb12 interaction?
    Thanks in advance,
    Dan2
    • [​IMG]
      Dr Ben October 29, 2012 at 9:03 pm # Reply
      Hi Dan2 –
      Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism, 3rd Ed., Chapter 9, Vitamin B12, page 258.
      • [​IMG]
        Dan2 (not the same Dan above) October 29, 2012 at 10:34 pm # Reply
        Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate your taking the time to find the reference.
        Unfortunately, google books — no matter how hard I try — won’t let me access that page. Chapter 9 (in the current 2012 edition) starts on page 307, and I could find info on b12 on pages 357 and 359…but ‘page 358 isn’t part of this preview.’
        I guess the main point is to take them far apart.
  6. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    Here's a US government site which talks about Vitamin C and dietary B12:
    "Vitamin C
    Early research suggests that vitamin C supplements can destroy dietary vitamin B12. It isn't known whether this interaction is important, but to stay on the safe side, take vitamin C supplements at least 2 hours after meals."
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/926.html

    "Vitamin B12 can have its absorption decreased by the drug metformin, which is used to treat hyperglycemia (high blood sugar). It also can be destroyed by megadoses (500 mg or greater) of vitamin C."
    http://www.spineuniverse.com/wellness/nutrition/supplements-vitamin-b12-cobalamin
  7. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    Also, I give up about finding advice to take methylcobalamin and methylfolate apart. I've spent a long time looking. I know I've read it before! Aaaugh. I don't know.
  8. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Thanks for the links and info Bluebell. Interesting. It sounds like the issue is with B12s ingested into the stomach with the C. All of my B12s are sublingual which apparently avoids the the issue. The 5-MTHF is swallowed however.

    In any case, its probably worth spacing them out a bit.
  9. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    You are right that study mentioned on the NIH site sounds like it possibly could be about B12 in the stomach, but Ben Lynch's advice is definitely not about swallowed B12, but about sublingual B12, as you can see in the excerpt from his protocol that I pasted above: "be sure to take this away from... vitamin C by 20 minutes... break the [B12] tablet into fifths and place 1/5th under the tongue".

    I have also seen the advice to take them separately here on PhoenixRising, about the sublingual B12 -- I think I have read that methylfolate, C, and methylcobalamin should be taken some time apart from each other. The site's search function won't work for this topic, but if I do see a mention of the topic in the future, I'll return to this thread and post the link.
  10. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Great! Thank you for all of the information and follow up. I had been spacing my B12s and methyl folate out by at least 20min (at least an hour or more), but I was not aware of this research.

    The health care practitioner that I'm working with said to take then 5-MTHF about 20 min. after the B12s, probably to avoid methyl trapping as mentioned in one of the articles listed above.
  11. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    Hi, the last thing I thought was interesting is that Ben Lynch says in the excerpt above that the B12 should be taken upon waking. I don't know why he prefers that time of day, but since you are taking yours at midday, I thought I'd point it out.

    ---
    I'm so glad to see your first pdf, because I've been wanting a list of some of those rs numbers. ...I do my personal genetic analysis by plugging in the numbers myself on 23andme -- I'm not quite sure at the mo' if I want random online organizations to have the precise recipe for making a Bluebell! :p

    ---
    Can you tell me about Livewello? Is it a free service? Who is behind the site - if you know. What do they do with your 23andMe information after they produce the report (erase it from their system, or keep it) - do they say?

    I ask this because I had not heard of them before seeing your post, and I will now add them to my big list of methylation links, in the service provider area.
  12. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
  13. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Thank you for the additional info.

    I also thought it was interesting that Dr. Lynch recommended taking B12 upon waking. Any idea why that is? I've heard that one should Bs on an empty stomach, so maybe that's the deal?

    I've been taking mine about 2 hours or so after breakfast.

    LiveWello came recommended elsewhere (on a STTM email discussion group, I think), so I decided to give it a try in addition to Sterling's App and see if any of the results were different. As far as I can tell, the data is kept completely private and not shared. I think it ended up being about $20 which includes future updates whenever new data is added to the report.

    Here's the link to the LiveWello 23andMe app: https://livewello.com/23andMe.
    Here's a link to a presentation on the service: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-JQdCt-ZuqIVUpMbUtJajZiLW8/preview?pli=1
  14. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Going through my reports, I'm trying to figure out the SNPs which I should be most focused on and put together the following list:
    • VDR Taq +/+
    • MTR A2756G +/+
    • COMT V158M +/-
    • COMT H62H +/-
    • MTRR A66G +/-
    • CBS C699T +/-
    • CBS A360A +/-
    • 4 NOS +/-
    I've seen elsewhere that others like Valentijn have said that there is no valid research from some of these having a significant effect on methylation and health. So, I'd be interested in hearing more from Bluebell, Valentijn, and any others on what's important and what is not.
  15. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    Hon, it was nice of you to "@" me, but I don't know much about the mutations. I just kinda look for MTHFR, any +/+'s, and things like that.

    It seems to me that you don't have a lot of big ones to worry about.

    I share 5 of your mutations. I do not have these 2: MTR +/+ and the CBS C699T. (And I don't know about my NOS ones - I have not looked them up.) I have more mutations besides these.

    The VDR Taq +/+, as Yasko interprets it, is actually the allele that most people have, and I've been saying for some time that I couldn't find much solid information that indicated that it was so bad to have. The other day, Valentijn appeared to have come around to my point of view about VDR Taq in this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-great-vdr-taq-bsm-debate.24474/

    ----
    I don't really know, but it seems that people here are taking a bit of a breather in terms of giving new folks 23andme advice -- I had thought it was because it was summertime and is the last week or two before a lot of people's kids go back to school or something -- but perhaps that's not it: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...n-tx-am-i-doing-this-right.24519/#post-375241. So I think your Vale-bot idea of researching the archives to see what other knowledgeable contributors have written in the past about these mutations is probably a good way forward.

    ----
    Even so, I'm not sure what kind of odd black hole vortex thing you seem to have fallen into where the only PhoenixRising person commenting on your thread is me! Ha ha, what sort of bad karma load would torture you thus?! :lol:

    ----
    Thanks for the info about Livewello.

    Do you feel that the paid services you have used have each contributed uniquely to your understanding of your genes, or, in retrospect, would choosing just one of them have been enough?

    Have you used all of the free services that I mention in my big list of links, including Promethease and Ian's rare alleles?

    In case you wish to have another point of view, there is another analysis service I've just learned about, a fellow who makes his clients video reports. I have no idea about it, but if you want to check it out, his name is Thane and he's on Facebook only (no private website) - here is part 1 of his sample video on Facebook:
    http://www.youtube. com/watch?v =2hZy8nr-vi8 (to watch, remove the space in front of com and the = sign)
    I think it might cost $50, which is quite a lot (in my opinion), but maybe that would be a great home business for others on PhoenixRising who really know their stuff to get into!!

    Does STTM-Stop the Thyroid Madness go into methylation much? I saw an essay that I think was called "Mary's story", but there didn't seem that there was much else on that site, beyond some tips and the warning that methylation might be important, which I'm glad they mention.
    Valentijn likes this.
  16. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,290
    Likes:
    8,996
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    You've got the faster version of VDR, which is a good thing. Though if you want to look at other relevant SNPs for the gene, they're at forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-vdr-variations.24480/

    The MTR is a very interesting one I was looking at last night. Your version might reflect slower B12 production, so B12 supplementation may help. But you also might have the good version - all the research I've seen thus far is in the cancer area, and about half says +/+ is better, and half says its worse. The MTRR indicates you're a bit slow in replenishing your MTR, so B12 is also indicated there.

    You have the not-fast but not-slow version of COMT. At most this might mean that your tolerance for methyl groups is limited, but it's hard to guess what that limit is. Taking hydroxyB12 might therefore be safer, but a normal (or even higher) dose of methylB12 probably won't hurt either.

    CBS C699T -/- is the riskier version due to slow removal of homocysteine (upregulation isn't a risk). Your homocysteine might get a little elevated due to that, but a normal amount of B6 is probably plenty to help with any problems. The MTR and MTRR also can contributed to elevated homocysteine.

    No idea about 4 NOS.

    SUMMARY:
    B12 and B6 can be helpful for the SNPs you have. HydroxoB12 might be the safer form of B12 if you want to do high doses of B12, but methylB12 is probably safe for normal doses (watch for potassium issues if you go higher with methylB12).
  17. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Hi Bluebell,

    Before Valentijn joined us it was like having our own private room here. :) Hi Valentijn, thanks for the input. I'll respond in more detail to your post next. Thank you both.

    I should have been more clear in referring to the "4 NOS +/-" SNPs. What I meant to say was that it looks like I have 4 polymorphisms in the nitric oxide synthase genes (NOS1, NOS2, and NOS3). I'm not sure how much of a factor or a concern this actually is.

    I've been reading the VDR Taq/BSM debate thread and it all seems to be a bit convoluted at the present time. I guess that is how it is in the early stages of research, review, and studies. For now, the take away seems to be that that VDR Taq +/+ is not a significant concern.

    Agreed. What seems like it could be helpful is some sort of matrix or guide to interpretation. Like a list or graph of the main SNPs related to methylation and other health concerns (which are backed by research) along with a summary of what it means and suggested avenues for treatment. Even better would be a matrix or grid for combinations of SNPs. ie. if you have this, this, and that, it could me this. Kind of like what Valentijn and the other senior members are doing manually for people. Does anything like this exist?

    Not really. I think choosing one would have been enough, either Sterling's report or LiveWello. I was mainly looking for significant differences in the reports and didn't find many. The Genetic Genie report was much more limited, but nonetheless interesting as it did attempt to provide a summary and some interpretation of the involved SNPs. I guess it may be the closest thing out there to what I described above.

    No, I haven't. Thank you for the reminder. I will check them and the Facebook video link out today.

    I don't think there is much on the main STTM site, but there are one or two of moderators on the STTM Circadian Method/Adrenal email group who seem to know a lot about methylation and include it when helping others.
    Valentijn likes this.
  18. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    The good news is, we aren't living in some kind of alternate space-time dimension where you and I are the only two earthlings (whereupon I might have needed to ditch the flower persona and become a future woman).

    The bad news is, well, the companion the mothership has beamed over to join us. :eek: Let's hope she was holding onto a package of stroopwafels at the time.
    Valentijn likes this.
  19. future_man

    future_man

    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    6
    Hi Valentijn,

    Thank you very much for the reply and input. I'm currently on a methylation protocol supplementing with 1/8 of a tablet (2.5 mg) of Dibencozide (Coenzymated B12), 1 tablet of Hydroxy B12 (1000mcg), and 1/4 of a tablet (250mcg) of Methyl B12 - all sublingual. I'm also taking 800mcg of 5-MTHF.

    I do feel the effects of taking the Bs, a mild stimulation and feeling like things are turning on or something. Nothing too dramatic, so I think I'm handling these levels well enough.

    Thanks for the bit on watching potassium levels with B supplementation. The last time I had potassium checked back in April it was 4.0 in a range of 3.5 - 5.2 which seemed okay...but was before I started the current methylation protocol and B12 supplementation. I'm getting some more labs done this week, in which potassium will be one of them, so it will be good to see where it is now.

    So the +/- may not be as much of an issue? My very limited understanding of it is that it can result in issues with the sulphur pathway and excess sulfites/sulphur in the body? Is that right? When I started the methylation protocol I did a 3 week low thiols diet (really a drag) to see if I had any issues there. After adding some of the higher sulphur foods back in, I couldn't tell a difference - but have nonetheless still tried to limit my intake of them while I work on these other issues.

    I did a little research here and found this thread. Looks like there is some disagreement on this? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...versy-with-the-cbs-c699t-enzyme-defect.13957/
    Critterina and Valentijn like this.
  20. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

    Messages:
    392
    Likes:
    210
    It will when you make it for us! :p

    The first thing you describe, I've partly made for myself in Excel, geared towards my mutations. My genetic results are in rows, I have columns for different reference sources, and in the intersecting cells I put what the sources have said about that mutation. I started doing this when I first got my 23andMe results, but then I stopped, so it's unfinished.
    An example of the info I've saved is the information about ACAT that I pasted in a post for Roxie60: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...a-doctor-impractical.24323/page-2#post-375308
    That is something that people could do for themselves (concentrating on their own genetic results) pretty easily, either in Excel, Word, or hardcopy paper files/binder notebook.

    The second thing you describe would be complex and time-consuming to analyze and describe in words for every scenario because there are so many permutations of the allele combinations. Basically, that's where it takes an "expert" who focuses on the entirety of an individual's results and can picture in her/his imagination how the biochemical systems might be operating simultaneously and might respond to different interventions.**

    **While I think that people can have a good handle on biochemistry even if they don't have a professional degree in the health sciences, I'm not sure how easy it is for anyone to know quite what is going on in a particular person's body and how that would be affected by making changes (diet, supplements, daily behaviors, etc.) A lot of the advice given (even for a fee) is likely to be conjecture and repetition of received wisdom passed on by other people. This is where engaging a health professional who has extensive knowledge in the area, who has demonstrably been able to help prior clients with this, and who will monitor your progress and help you make adjustments would be good.
    Valentijn likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page