The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Working on a Aminoacids rich, low Carbohydrates diet based on faulty PDH

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by NexusOwl, Dec 24, 2016.

  1. NexusOwl

    NexusOwl Spanish advocate

    Messages:
    48
    Likes:
    139
    Spain
    After the recent findings in the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme and the conclusions for dietary treatements, I'm working in a affordable diet to get all the aminoacids cited by this analysis made by MEaction:

    http://www.meaction.net/2016/12/23/...ort-for-disordered-metabolism-in-me-patients/

    I have found hemp protein can be a good source of basic aminoacids.

    Here you've got a graphic comparing its content to soy and egg

    http://www.fundacion-canna.es/sites...nutritional-benefits-of-hemp-seeds_text_4.png

    The problem I see is the evevated levels of glutamate. I've read in the forums you can reduce glutamate levels with N-acetilcysteine + Glycine.

    I know you can supplement them easily, but I'm trying to help friends with economic difficulties here, so if you know of any good sources of those, please, tell me.

    The only Aminoacids missing from all the ones listed in that article are Isoleucine and Asparagine.

    Can you think of any other amonoacids (or supplements/foods) you think it would be beneficial to add?
     
    MeSci and FTY like this.
  2. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,153
    Likes:
    17,870
    Since we mostly use amino acids for other things besides energy, I'd be wary of fiddling around too much with trying to raise or lower particular aa's.

    For me the general message seems to be to make sure we get plenty of protein. I'm trying to do this by adding soya protein powder to my breakfast cereal (I already use soya milk as I'm off dairy, so can't use whey powder), and making sure I eat plenty of protein at other meals from a variety of sources.

    I had a go at finding tables of aa content of different foods and making myself a spreadsheet etc, but came to the conclusion that not enough is known for me to fiddle about with individual aa's.

    This probably isn't much help, sorry. I'm interested to see what others say.
     
  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes:
    1,750
    Pacific Northwest
    Protein needs can vary widely, depending on what's going on...supplementing individual ones can be quite helpful.

    In general, I seem to need a lot of protein, about 1.4g/kg as I've seen posted elsewhere on this site. Additionally, my body seems to have very different needs for the various amino acids, so my doctor tests on occasion and then we add them in, based on labs and symptoms.

    I supplement these on a regular basis: carnitine, taurine, glycine, lysine, citrulline, serine, tyrosine, and BCAAs, and occasionally 5-HTP.
     
    FTY likes this.
  4. ash0787

    ash0787 Senior Member

    Messages:
    299
    Likes:
    576
    I just started eating chicken everyday, not sure if it will help but worth a try, also thinking about getting that body building powder, don't know much about it but apparently we already have some, googled amino acid but it seemed complicated, how do we know which particular ones we are using for citric acid cycle ?
     
    TiredSam likes this.
  5. NexusOwl

    NexusOwl Spanish advocate

    Messages:
    48
    Likes:
    139
    Spain
    @Hip posted this in the thread on PDH and maybe we can use it as a reference.
     

    Attached Files:

    trishrhymes likes this.
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,486
    Likes:
    35,030
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    There are so many aminos involved that we might as well just treat it as a need for protein unless there are specific needs for specific aminos.

    We also need to ascertain if low fat, normal fat, or high fat is required. Further, any diet needs to take into account essential nutrients, including fiber, vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids. Pentose sugars are also essential sugars. Fortunately if meat is chosen the essential fatty acids should be supplied even in lean cuts of meat. I think the same goes for pentose sugars. However if we are using isolated protein or egg whites we have to consider pentose sugars and essential fatty acids.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,354
    Likes:
    14,658
    You may also like to see this post about using a ketogenic diet to try to bypass the mitochondrial pyruvate blockage that Fluge and Mella found in ME/CFS patients.
     
    NexusOwl likes this.
  8. NexusOwl

    NexusOwl Spanish advocate

    Messages:
    48
    Likes:
    139
    Spain
    So, which is the best aproach to carbohydrates? Totally avoidance (I don't know if that's even possible) or just try to reduce some specific sugars?
     
  9. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

    Messages:
    697
    Likes:
    1,215
    UK
    @Jody has been on a succesful high protein diet for a few years,she may have a few tips
     
    NexusOwl likes this.
  10. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,192
    Likes:
    11,786
    Mid-Ohio Valley, United States
    For those with food intolerances that might limit their amino acid intake, I recently found out that Solgar (whose CoQ10 I really like) makes a vegetarian amino acid mix that's darned cheap -- $14 a bottle. If I try, I will let you all know how it goes.

    I've also been avoiding carbs and sugars for awhile. A few people, myself included, tried to avoid ALL sugars as much as possible for awhile, and felt better. All of us have since added back some sugar and/or carbs (FAR less than a standard diet), and those who used that technique felt better than before they'd tried.

    Avoiding all carbs is impossible, but if your daily carb intake is in the 50-60-g range it's still super-low without approaching ketogenic crisis in the slightest (20-30-g of carbs per day is reputedly where that kicks in). The important thing to remember is that carbs and sugars are in fruits and starchy veggies in high quantities. Even those who are in earnest about avoiding sugars are often really thinking of "added" sugars and not sugar in general.

    I've never had the courage to go 'full keto': i.e. the epileptic diet. I wonder how that would feel, but it's hard to face a diet that limited. Right now my diet is still pretty varied.

    -J
     
    J.G, TreePerson, TiredSam and 3 others like this.
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes:
    1,750
    Pacific Northwest
    My doctor wanted me to try a ketogenic diet to see if my brain fog would improve. I'd been on a Paleo Diet for a few years, avoiding sugar, and it wasn't too hard to shift into ketosis.

    He'd suggested doing Bulletproof coffee in the morning with 2T of caprylic acid oil, trying KetoCaNa keto esters, and having all meals within an 8 hour period each day.

    I'm not terribly hungry until about 1-2pm, then have a salad with non starchy vegetables, chicken, salmon or eggs, nuts, almonds, avocados and flax seed oil on it. Then for dinner, I can eat non starchy vegetables with olive oil and a decent amount of salmon, lamb, or bison, with a piece of 85% chocolate afterwards.

    I think it's possible to live for quite awhile like this. I'd read quite a bit of Peter Attia's Eating Academy blog first, and saw Alessandro Ferretti speak about ketogenic diets to a group of doctors at a conference where ketogenic meals were served, so it wasn't as intimidating as I'd originally imagined.

    My goal was to try doing it without having to obsess about it as I just don't have the energy to manage anything elaborate.

    And, after the first couple of days, my head started feeling a bit clearer. Still working on the energy, though. I'll have to see how it works in the long run, though. But definitely worth a try.
     
  12. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes:
    5,170
    Canada
    Cutting meat out of my diet helped to noticeably reduce a fair amount of my brain fog. Taking liposomal vitamin c, liposomal glutathione, and LDN, have helped to reduce my brain fog even more.
     
    WendyM and JaimeS like this.
  13. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes:
    1,750
    Pacific Northwest
    Organic, humanely raised, preferably non-corn or soy-fed meat is an essential source of B12, carnitine, methionine, trace minerals, essential fats, etc. that are used in methylation and to make glutathione, rid the body of toxins, cell membrane function, and hormone and neurotransmitter production.

    Meat raised conventionally could have toxins (like arsenic in most chicken), cadmium, organophosphates, glyphosate, etc. which can block biochemical pathways and impair mitochondrial function. Fish must be sourced carefully to avoid mercury and other toxins. These could negatively impact brain function.

    The latest research is showing increased need for amino acids in CFS. My labs confirm that I need 90-100g daily - my doctor exclaimed "Wow, you DO need a lot of protein!" when looking at my amino acids test.

    To get that much protein without eating meat means upping carbohydrate consumption, which may be counterproductive.

    Each of us is different, certainly, but there are several factors at play, and unfortunately, humans were designed to be omnivores... being a vegetarian or vegan (even with the best intentions) could be a contributor to an already difficult health situation.

    (I used to be an almost vegetarian and my mom was a vegan for 5 years and we learned the hard way, as serious health problems developed, why our bodies need meat.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
    JaimeS and trishrhymes like this.
  14. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes:
    5,483
    UK
    @JaimeS

    I noticed in the comments of your MEAction article you said you feel better when eating a low carb diet. How long would you say it was before you saw improvement? Did you continue to improve or just see a boost and no further improvement after that?
     
  15. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,192
    Likes:
    11,786
    Mid-Ohio Valley, United States
    I went totally off all carbs I could see/count at first, so no sugar, fruit, or starchy veggies, not just no bread or potatoes. No sweet nuts like cashews either.

    I've done something like this before, and often the first 24-48 hours suck as you come down off of sugar withdrawal. This time I craved sugar, but there were no headaches or anything like I've had in the past. I think we may already favor ketosis to the extent that it's not as big a deal as it might be.

    Both me and another individual who tried this -- so still, just n=2 -- found that we were able to go back to low added sugar after awhile and still feel okay. 'Awhile' varied, but we're talking a month or two, not a week or two.

    Make sure what you are taking in is high quality. (For example, some Atkins diet suggestions are hideous. 4 hot dogs a day?!) Make sure you're aware of and steer clear of hidden sugars as much as possible.

    Also, I think that if after trying this for a week, honestly, checking to be sure you aren't taking in sugar from some unexpected source, you should know whether you're going to feel better or not.

    Jaime
     
    ScottTriGuy, Cheesus and Learner1 like this.
  16. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,192
    Likes:
    11,786
    Mid-Ohio Valley, United States
    .....metabolically? The improvement was within 24 hours. Dysbiosis-wise I kept improving for months.
     
    trishrhymes and Cheesus like this.
  17. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes:
    1,750
    Pacific Northwest
    I recently started a ketogenic diet, but hadn't experienced the "keto flu" I'd been warned about, though I was definitely in ketosis. I'd already been on a Paleo diet, so it wasn't a very drastic swirch.

    This link has other anecdotal experiences, suggesting if water and electrolyte intake are kept at adequate levels, it can be avoided.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re.../did_anyone_else_not_go_through_the_keto_flu/

    I've found it helps me think more clearly, and it happened pretty quickly.
     
    ryan31337 likes this.
  18. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes:
    3,822
    Bristol
    I'm a bit too tired to explain fully here, but how do you think this relates to what I wrote about: https://tipsforme.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/resource-home-hacking-blood-glucose/ ? Eg @JaimeS @Learner1

    On normal carb portions I had quite high blood glucose for some meals (generally related to grains) but I responded by halving carbs in all the meals this was a problem for and on retests the half portions were ok in terms of blood glucose.

    NB the point of my blog post is this is individual so may not be what you need. I seem to be a Carb Sensitive person (see post).

    Also I know the Optimum Health Clinic isn't popular on here (and I have certain reservations too) but a lot of their nutrition stuff was helpful to me eg animal protein at every meal, cut down carbs, cut out refined sugar completely, organic where affordable (and suggestions for things like venison which are virtually organic without the price tag). They've been doing the mitochondria supplements for a while too.
     
  19. carer51

    carer51 carer/partner of moderate/severe sufferer

    Messages:
    65
    Likes:
    193
    UK
    I can't comment on the science as I'm a graphic designer, I went to art school, ha. But here's what we're doing.

    I'm trying to increase the protein in my partner's diet after the article. A few months ago we went (mostly) vegan, which makes this difficult. I know we are going to have to compromise but I'm not sure where yet. I did in fact manage to do a ketogenic diet myself a few months ago whilst remaining vegan, and lost nearly a stone, but James is quite picky with what he likes to eat, and boy does he like carbs. Especially sandwiches. This leaves me with a rather complex problem. I am managing to get I think 15-25g of protein into each meal though I think, and I use Sunwarrior raw protein which is mostly brown rice based which claims to have a full amino acid profile, I take that after sports, I've started giving that to him twice a day, and miraculously, he likes it. The chocolate flavour. (I'm quite mindful that it sounds like I am talking about a child here... but I have to do all the shopping and whatnot). I feel the carbohydrate content of his meals is still undesirably high though. Bread, potatoes - partly due to my having to compromise on my own energy levels too so things often have to be easy to prepare - crisps after the evening meal. And he eats 3 bananas a day or he complains about gut problems.

    Also trying to encourage him to eat nuts as snacks. Bought the new weetabix plus protein as he generally eats weetabix every morning. Especially as I have my own health problems so we have to compromise on a lot of things, to stuff he can prepare himself at least some of the time. I made protein pancakes this morning (chickpea flour has SO much protein - 22g per 100g - and does SO much, I can make a passable scrambled egg or omelette with it as well as various other things) but he wasn't that into it, probably because I added a scoop of pea protein powder which has a weird texture, nor the nutty flaxy protein porridge I made the other morning. I've felt for a while he would benefit from a lower carb diet but I think he struggles with change. Being on benefits too, protein is expensive, especially if you want to be ethical about it. Nuts are pricey! And he doesn't like peanuts!

    I've replaced his lunchtime sandwiches with wholegrain tortilla wraps, at 5.5g of protein per wrap that's not a bad amount of protein at all, that's 11g before you add the filling, and at the moment that's a generous portion of quorn chicken style pieces (which have a very respectable amount of protein, the vegan ones actually have more percentage wise) made into a chicken-mayo type affair. The rest of the week I will be doing something with houmous and falafel and maybe some beans or something. Linda McCartney sausages and quarter pounders have loads of protein and are great and I have dehydrated soya mince to make into bolognese. And a bean chilli or something with beans a few times a week. Lentils. Tofu here and there (but it's possible soya is bad for you and James is somewhat concerned about its potential effects on testosterone - not sure about the science on that. I know that if that's true then tempeh is better).

    Thinking about buying some fish - salmon etc - but in a way I feel even weirder about that because I love marine life and I know we're kind of messing all that up with overfishing etc. I'm willing to compromise and I would always put James' health first but we both feel that we would like to avoid meat/dairy as far as possible, I do feel that it's possible to get at least enoguh protein for a normal/healthy person from a vegan diet (though I'm not militant about it) and we can't afford/couldn't travel to anywhere that sells truly ethical meat/eggs at least as far as I know at the moment.

    One takeaway from this: Sunwarrior vegan protein tastes pretty great.

    Man do I talk a lot.
     
  20. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes:
    3,822
    Bristol

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page