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Wired but Tired or that Blasted "red alert" feeling

Discussion in 'Neurological/Neuro-sensory' started by Timaca, Apr 6, 2010.

  1. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    OK...so I'm wondering who else out there has this symptom. It is what I call my "red alert" symptom. My body (entire body) feels like something is really wrong....so it is "on alert". It is not an anxiety attack. I'm not in a panic state (I don't have those)...but by body feels like something is wrong. Thus I feel kinda tense. It can get to the point where I grit my teeth. I can feel agitated...I even rub my hands together. Some have described it as "wired but tired". Yes, that could describe it. Some have described it as you are revving a car engine but not going anywhere. Yes, that could describe it too. Or it feels like an infected splinter....your body just feels like "eeeeeeeee" gritting your teeth "eeeee".

    I hate this symptom. I get it when I'm in a flare....or when I've started a new antiviral or antibiotic...I think it's related to high viral/bacterial load or die-off.

    I'm interested to hear of other people's symptoms and what they think is causing it.

    Thanks in advance, Timaca
     
  2. Carrigon

    Carrigon Senior Member

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    I get it from too much sensory overload, like when i come home from the grocery store.
     
  3. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Interesting....sensory overload is not an issue for me. That does not trigger it...thanks for sharing...
    Timaca
     
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  4. Otis

    Otis SeƱor Mumbler

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    Great idea for a thread!

    I fell off so much last year that I had to stop working. This "tired but wired" feeling has gone with it (I think because I have finally stopped pushing too hard - 15 years too late), but I remember it well.

    For me it was like my entire body and mind were electrically charged. It was typically after a long push to get something accomplished and before the crash. A normal person would relax and get some sleep, but not me. I would have this nervous, unfocused 'energy'. The only positive I found was that I would tap some creativity and if I was smart enough to write them down I would get some good ideas from the experience, and some really crazy ones. :ashamed:

    Otis
     
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  5. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Hello Timaca,

    I am so glad you ask this question. Yes, I hate this particular part of the illness and would like to know what is causing it. I wonder if it is anything to do with the balance between the GABA and NDMA receptors. Anyone know.....?
     
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  6. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Not me, but I have the "wired but tired" thing, and loathe it. It has gotten lots less frequent and less intense since I've gotten into methylation protocol.
     
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  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Very, very common. I remember hearing an explanation a few years ago as to how depression is completely different from CFS/ME:

    If you have clinical depression, you don't feel like doing anything, you want to sleep and stay in bed.

    With CFS/ME, you want to get back to life, you want to do more, but you have to sleep...but you can't! That 'wired but tired' feeling.

    I think Rich Van Konynenburg attributes this (and other problems) to methylation/detoxification problems (as I see Sunday has posted about). Hopefully Rich will see this and chime in here...or maybe Sunday can help explain it? :)

    d.
     
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  8. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    I also feel quite disconnected from my body....is this symptom common to you?

    Timaca
     
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  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    I think the "tired but wired" feeling is due to excitotoxicity. This is due to neurons that have so-called NMDA receptors firing too easily and thus too rapidly. Other phenomena that can be associated with this are anxiety and insomnia, and I think that brain fog can be caused by this, too. Which symptoms one gets probably depends on which neurons are experiencing excitotoxicity. There is supposed to be a balance between stimulation of the NMDA receptors and stimulation of the GABA receptors. The former are excitatory, and the latter are inhibitory. For various reasons, this balance is disturbed in CFS, in the excitatory direction. I think that glutathione depletion is at the basis of this, because that puts a partial block in the Krebs cycle in these neurons, and the result is lowered production of ATP. ATP is needed to power the ion pumps in the cell membrane. These ion pumps maintain the electrical potential across the membrane, and that's what establishes the firing threshold for nerve impulses. When the potential gets too low, the neurons become supersensitive, and they fire too often. It's best to try to calm them down, because too much excitotoxicity can actually kill neurons. Some people use Klonopin or other drugs to calm down the excitotoxicity, but the down side is that it can be very hard to get off these drugs. Other people try various supplements. Amy Yasko has offered a list of possible supplements for this purpose. They include magnesium, taurine, GABA, theanine, pycnogenol, grape leaf extract, progesterone cream, Valerian root, and some of her RNA formulations, such as Nerve Calm RNA. She also emphasizes the importance of avoiding foods that are high in glutamate or aspartate, such as MSG or Nutrasweet.

    Rich
     
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  10. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Yes, and my glutamate is through the roof! I have been extremely wired and tired. For me, I have a lot of tingling....that tingling is the nervous system reacting usually to something toxic. A die off. The worst is when you are exhausted but you feel this burst of energy like your head is going to pop off of your neck. It's all so crazy. Trying to explain this to a normal person is just insane. I am so tired sometimes and yet I can't sit still. I will be on the computer, on the phone and watching tv all at the same time. Then there are other times when I can't even read words online let alone talk. I think Rich sums it up best above. I take ativan...that calms me down and I take it sparingly. Taurine is good too and I also take progesterone cream. Valerian knocks me out in a bad way.
     
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  11. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Very interesting.

    Spitfire~ I've never measured my glutamate. Is that worth doing? What lab does that?

    I do have burning, sparking, crawling nerves all over my body....They were one of the presenting signs of my illness. It can vary in intensity....my better days it is less, my worse days it is pretty awful. I did have Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS) too, but taking some magnesium has calmed that down. I can't take too much Mg or I feel like a rag doll. I also have to take the slow release kind, or I can actually feel my body relaxing, and it is quite uncomfortable (to my heart).

    I don't get the burst of energy however, that you described...I can feel more and more agitated however. Not anxious....but agitated. So, I'll rub my hands together or grit my teeth.

    Rich, thanks for your informative post.

    Best, Timaca
     
  12. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    different people seem to be classing 3 different symptoms under the same description - tired but wired

    1 - what I would describe as tired but wired - staying awake past when you are exausted and know you should sleep - the exaustion remains but you cant shut down and sleep - afaik this is normal

    2 - when you have mild to moderate PEM symptoms and suddenly you feel as if you have energy - lots of it - you dont want to rest - you dont want to sit/lie there - you want to be out doing things - the sensation of energy is normally a lie - dont listen to it - stick with whatever pacing system you have in place

    3 - when you've gone way past your limit but you have to continue - physically and mentally you cant cope - panic sensations occur - which will give you a brief window of 'increased' energy and possibly even cognative functioning - at least improved (tho more limited) focus - use the time wisely - do NOT consume high sugar products to give you an energy boost - they will shut you down - yet another T shirt I own lol

    AFAIK these arent the same thing so trying to discuss them as if they were.......
     
  13. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Wonko~
    I appreciate that you are breaking the tired but wired up into categories.
    I am not in category #1.
    I don't know what PEM is, but I'm not in category #2 either...I do not feel like I have lots of energy.
    Nor does category #3 fit me.

    My wired feeling is a bit like you might feel under a stressful situation...but there is no circumstance that is making me stressed. Yet, my body has a wired, stressed response. It's awful, and I hate it.

    Best, Timaca
     
  14. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    ah - that

    as far as I know that sudden alertness/vigalence and associated physical sensations with no obvious causation is normal - at least I can remember it for as long as I have coherent memory and it's not something I have spoken with anyone about - but like a lot of things I could be wrong - I've checked several things I assumed were normal after having seen them described (better than I could) on this forum and found that within my limited sample of people without ME they arent considered normal

    or have I got it wrong again?
     
  15. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    I would not call this normal. It is awful, and one of my worst symptoms. It was there so badly at the worst of my illness that I would go sit in a hot tub just to try to relax/unwind/get my mind off it. I could not think and it was hard to be motivated to do anything. My whole body felt like an infected splinter.

    Since I have gotten better, it has gone away at times. It will come back during a flare, or when I start a new medication....so it seems to me to be related to increased pathogen activity or die-off. Or, like Rich said, something to do with neurotoxicity. It was gone for most of last month, then I had a stressful week last week because my son became quite ill. It has come back, along with a greater feeling of disconnectedness. Momentarily, as I type this, it has gone away. I can only hope my body is pulling out of the relapse and it stays away. I never had this feeling when I was well. Never.

    Best, Timaca
     
  16. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    my applogies if you feel I was dismissing your symptoms - my intent was to reassure only

    your right that doesnt sound normal - my version last for a few minutes to 30 or so - it's not constant - and it's only occasionally - in my case it can be unpleasant but not more than that

    if it's occuring for a longer duration and more frequently then it may not be the same thing

    again my appologies for assumign it was and I hope it continues to stay away
     
  17. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Hi Wonko~
    No reason to apologize. I never felt like you were trying to dismiss my symptoms...only trying to clarify them.

    It would be great if it only lasted for 30 minutes. Mine can go on all day, day after day. It is awful.

    I notice you are from England. We are planning on visiting there in July. I look forward to knowing your country. Please PM me if there are sights we should take in. (given I have CFS :)

    Best, Timaca
     
  18. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Timaca,

    Just to say I know exactly what you mean, and, yes, it is awful and is difficult to tolerate, especially through the long hours of the sleepless nights. I have found that baclofen, with a little ginger wine (exaggerates the response of baclofen) gives me some relief. I suspect that this is because it is a GABA agonist and so helps to calm down the NMDA response. If I've got that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me, as I'm only guessing.
     
  19. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    Whenever I worked I would get the 'tired but wired' because I had to push myself as well.When I'd finish a job it would take weeks for that wired feeling to leave with lots of sleep.When I'm having one of THOSE days with the bad brain fog I dread going into a store.I can't get out fast enough.So I have my cache of ativan on hand but I want to try Taurine,I've been seeing the name everywhere.
     
  20. VillageLife

    VillageLife Senior Member

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    Yes I get this when i've pushed my self to far,
    It sometimes feels like the next level of this illness....I have sometimes for what ever reason pushed on through this feeling and what happens next is I cant take any light, sounds or being touched, the only thing I can take is in a dark room with my eyes shut, even then with no stimulation and my eyes shut, i feel everything is un real and i keep blanking out...I try not to let this happen and always stop before that builds up.
     

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