Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

William Walsh Ph.D., Walsh Institute, brain chemistry testing

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by pspa123, May 29, 2016.

  1. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
    It's hard for me to assess whether this is another case of a small clique of practitioners following a cult leader, or if there is any legitimacy to Dr. Walsh (his Ph.D. incidentally appears to be in an unrelated field) and his theories about pyroluria, copper toxicity, and under/over methylation as mediated by histamine being the root of many if not all evils. He was originally a colleague of Carl Pfeiffer. Any thoughts welcome.

    His testing is pretty basic (zinc, copper, pryrolles, histamine) and relatively inexpensive but of course the question is, does it mean anything.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,508
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
  3. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
    s wish I knew which. It can be hard to tell with people like this. On the one hand of course he sounds intelligent and compelling. However, one thing that makes me question him is he relies a lot on the 90s concept of low serotonin which it seems to me has now been discredited by lots of neuroscientists and disavowed by lots of psychiatrists. See e.g. Terry Lynch, Depression Delusion. Another is that it makes little sense to me that such diverse groups of symptoms would all be causally explained by the same phenomenon. Lists like that -- on which nearly everyone could find some he or she had -- are a red flag for me. And in any event correlation does not equal causation. Another is that I have multiple symptoms on the list for both under and over methylators, which makes no sense. Another is that no controlled study seems to have validated his and Pfeiffer's and Hoffer's claims about pyroluria, and several found no connection between schizophrenia (where Hoffer first claimed a connection) and pyrolles.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
    Woolie, IreneF, musicfan50 and 2 others like this.
  4. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes:
    3,220
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    The traits list bothers me too. I have traits of both lists.

    However, I know two people who do better on a Walsh type protocol with SAMe instead of methylfolate.

    So based on these two real life examples, I think Walsh is onto something.

    Note that Walsh's methylation protocol only applies to mental health, not physical debilitation.

    Ben Lynch said he was going to have a talk with William Walsh probably a few years ago, but I don't think it's happened. I wish they would put their heads together.
     
  6. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
    The problem is as you know you can find anecdotal reports of people doing better on thousands of things. And as we know from drug trials, some people do fantastically on sugar pills. So without studies, I guess we have to fall back on plausibility and coherence, and those traits lists just send up red flags for me. The pyroluria one seems particularly disconnected, to me anyhow. That said, it would be great for the community of patients if these practitioners and theorists put their heads together rather than each proceeding in their own little niche.
     
    IreneF, Vanessa_M and Valentijn like this.
  7. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes:
    2,685
    Australia
    Me too.

    There was a recent thread discussing this
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  8. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
    Thank you, that was a good thread. I continue to think those symptom lists are so vague and sweeping that they do not reliably define any disorder. And of course what we don't know is how many people test positive and are NOT helped by the protocols. Or how many people test negative but have symptoms.

    Symptoms - physical signs and appearance
    • Characteristic breath and body odour, smells like sweet ripe fruit.
    • Immune system weak or stressed, causing frequent colds, infections; more likely to suffer from acne, eczema or herpes.
    • White flecks or spots on finger nails (zinc deficiency).
    • Cold hands and feet.
    • Crowded teeth (need to ask if orthodontic treatment has been used to correct crowded teeth).
    • Skin. A variety of chronic skin conditions that have not responded to previous treatments.
    • Skin is prone to stretch marks.
    • Skin appears paper thin.
    • Skin. If the patient's family has black skin, theirs will be lighter than other members of the family who do not have pyroluria.
    • Anaemia.
    • Hair. Reduced hair on head, eyebrows and eyelashes.
    • Tooth enamel - poor quality or appearance.
    • Fat tends to distribute in the middle of the body.
    dry skin, chronic acne, eczema or dermatitis, psoriasis.
    • Pale skin that is prone to sunburn.
    • Poor dream recall.
    • Tinnitus (whistle or ringing in the ears).
    • Poor tolerance of alcohol, drugs and medications. A little produces a powerful response.
    • Increased sensitivity/intolerance of sound, light, smells and touch. Poor sense of taste or smell.
    • A history of being a vegetarian or vegan.
    • Gluten intolerance.
    • Glucose intolerance with hypoglycaemia. Craving for high-sugar and high-carbohydrate foods.
    • Prone to frequent colds or other infections.
    • Poor appetite, especially in the morning.
    • Early morning nausea.
    • More capable and alert in the evening rather than in the morning.
    • As a child, often got a stitch when running.
    • Delayed onset of puberty.
    • Irregular menstrual periods.
    • Joint pain, usually in the knees/legs, creaking knees, restless leg syndrome.
    • Seizures, tremors.
    • Motion sickness (gets carsick or seasick).
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    cfs6691 and Valentijn like this.
  9. pspa123

    pspa123

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    35
    The studies seem to reject Hoffer's claimed observations, but that seems to have no effect on the believers all over the web who state it as though it were fact not theory. Naturally not one of them seems to even mention these inconvenient studies and they won't respond if you write them, or try to post on their blogs. Similar to a hundred other things, I guess.

    1. ^ Holman, Paul (July 1995). "Pyridoxine - Vitamin B-6" (PDF). Journal of Australian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine 14 (1): 5–16. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2007-05-08. Retrieved 2007-04-19.
    2. Jump up ^Cruz, R; Vogel, WH (1978). "Pyroluria: a poor marker in chronic schizophrenia". The American Journal of Psychiatry135 (10): 1239–40. PMID696910.
    3. Jump up ^Gendler, PL; Duhan, HA; Rapoport, H (1978). "Hemopyrrole and kryptopyrrole are absent from the urine of schizophrenics and normal persons". Clinical Chemistry24 (2): 230–3. PMID627053.
    4. Jump up ^Jacobson, SJ; Rapoport, H; Ellman, GL (1975). "The nonoccurrence of hemo- and kryptopyrrole in urine of schizophrenics". Biological Psychiatry10 (1): 91–3. PMID1120177.
    5. Jump up ^Gorchein, A (1980). "Urine concentration of 3-ethyl-5-hydroxy-4,5-dimethyl-delta 3-pyrrolin-2-one ('mauve factor') is not causally related to schizophrenia or to acute intermittent porphyria". Clinical science (London, England : 1979)58 (6): 469–76. PMID7428279.
     
  10. musicfan50

    musicfan50

    Messages:
    24
    Likes:
    9
    NZ
    One question I've had for a while is where are all the people that've been helped? Testimonies? Because there aren't any on the facebook page. Just saying.
     
    Vanessa_M likes this.
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes:
    3,220
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    There is one person on one of my Methylation Made Easy Youtube videos (#3) who was doing ok on Walsh supplements, then decided to go off them and try Yasko type methylation supplements. He got much worse and ended up going back on his Walsh supplements.

    Here's another one (at the bottom), I just did a quick google search of "William Walsh" "curezone" and "anxiety".
    http://www.curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=23303

    I've seen another one on Curezone, so that might be a good place to search.

    Walsh has several case histories in his book, Nutrient Power.
     
    musicfan50 likes this.
  12. musicfan50

    musicfan50

    Messages:
    24
    Likes:
    9
    NZ
    Thanks for that.
     
  13. Vanessa_M

    Vanessa_M

    Messages:
    71
    Likes:
    32
    British Columbia
    Hello readers of this thread,

    I just wanted to post something because I know some of you find it a bit suspect that there are 'too many' problems listed for under/overmethylation. I propose that the reason for this is explained in the following podcast: http://functionalforum.com/methylation-part-2-sustainable-solutions/ The methylation cycle does impact multiple different aspects of the body, and does involve neurotransmitters among other things.

    You can also look up an image of methylation cycle pathways on google and you will see how many different areas are affected, it is quite complex (and this is not just a claim that is exclusively being made by Walsh). What I think he and Dr. Mensah try to do differently than other practitioners, is to test for the by-products of the methylation cycle rather than the genetics to find out where people actually sit.

    Presence of a gene does not tell you whether it is active or not, or what the downstream effects might be. I've personally had the Walsh panel done, but I'm following that up with a SAMe/SAH ratio test for overmethylation to get secondary confirmation. I had two different types of test done to confirm copper overload (one on the Walsh panel, the other a Hair Mineral Analysis which is a cheap way to screen for deficiencies and overload in the full spectrum of minerals/heavy metals). So I say to anyone who is curious but skeptical of the results, get your tests done at two different labs to see if they are in agreement.

    I also agree with what some people are saying here, it would be nice if there was a forum where people could report their success stories or personal testimonials with Walsh Protocols, so many of us would be able to assess from these whether the claims being made are true or not. I have seen a number of different testimonials in other discussion forums and webpages, where people literally say that his protocols have saved their life/family/child.

    I know my Naturopath has seen the results herself in her practice - for ex. she has treated children with severe/extreme behavioral problems, these kids were able to go back to school again and function like normal children again. She had another patient who could not detox heavy metals, because it turned out he was severely undermethylated. One piece of advice she gave to me was that for maximum effectiveness, it is important to pair a nutrient therapeutics protocol with a gut-heal type of diet (like paleo, Wahl's protocol, GAPS diet, Specific Carbohydrate diet etc... they are all variants on the same thing, take your pick).

    She doesn't think it is enough to just do a protocol stand-alone. Another strong testimonial comes from Sammy G - she's a nutritionist - and she discusses her recovery from copper toxicity and undermethylation, after probably a decade or more of other failed approaches. See her page for a lot of good articles:

    https://www.samanthagilbert.com/methylation/ I spoke with her over the phone, and she explained to me that looking at the 'symptom lists' (which other people are criticizing here) is not actually all that useful, they are generalizations, so getting properly tested is the most important thing. People can easily have symptoms from both lists and that really confuses things. She says the following: "you cannot determine methylation status without proper testing, and self-diagnosis and supplementation is not recommended. I’ve seen too many people get their biotype completely wrong, supplement with the wrong nutrients, and make things far worse."

    Also, I want to point out that I don't think it is a matter have just having a few traits on each list. Walsh himself has said that overmethylation/undermethylation is common in many people and not inherently a bad thing, on either side of the spectrum there can actually be a lot of beneficial traits. You only want to get tested if you are actually manifesting the symptoms of mental illness or have a large number of the negative traits on the list.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2016
  14. Vanessa_M

    Vanessa_M

    Messages:
    71
    Likes:
    32
    British Columbia
    I don't think his results are anecdotal - his institute has supposedly done tens of thousands of biochemical tests on people with mental disorders, as well as healthy control populations. Presumably there is data on people who have followed his treatment protocols - but I do wish that this data were made publicly available, so it could be properly scrutinized and reviewed by anyone. I don't think his research is based just on anecdote, and it is arguably different than one practitioner reporting a few case studies from their clinical practice.

    I know he also does his presentations at the American Psychiatric Association's conferences and has apparently been well-received, so I don't think they would invite him if he were really considered a total quack. What I'd really like to see is a collaboration between Walsh and Drs. Bonnie Kaplan and Julia Rucklidge, http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/03/tipping-point/ seems like their work would be closely in alignment with his.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  15. Vanessa_M

    Vanessa_M

    Messages:
    71
    Likes:
    32
    British Columbia
    I would like to point out in terms of 'cult-like' behavior, is that we can easily say the same thing about mainstream mental health treatments. There are huge amounts of money being spent (in billions) to promote the belief that antidepressant medications and other mainstream treatments for mental illness actually work. Consensus with within the medical establishment has essentially been manufactured and so have public perceptions of mental illness treatments. David Healy (psychiatrist and academic in the UK) has done a good job of proving how this has been done, namely by hiding and suppressing negative data, ghostwritten studies in major medical journals which only report positive results, various marketing tactics and so on, see davidhealy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/.../2004-Healy-Shaping-the-Intimate-SS.pdf.

    He has a lot of good talks on YouTube summarizing his research and findings for those who prefer to listen rather than read.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
    sarah darwins and GreyOwl like this.
  16. Vanessa_M

    Vanessa_M

    Messages:
    71
    Likes:
    32
    British Columbia
    I also agree with what some people are saying here, it would be nice if there was a forum where people could report their success stories or personal testimonials with Walsh Protocols, so many of us would be able to assess from these whether the claims being made are true or not. I have seen a number of different testimonials in other discussion forums and webpages, where people literally say that his protocols have saved their life/family/child.

    I know my Naturopath has seen the results herself in her practice - for ex. she has treated children with severe/extreme behavioral problems, these kids were able to go back to school again and function like normal children again. One piece of advice she gave to me was that for maximum effectiveness, it is important to pair a nutrient therapeutics protocol with a gut-heal type of diet (like paleo, Wahl's protocol, GAPS diet, Specific Carbohydrate diet etc... they are all variants on the same thing, take your pick).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2016

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page