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William Switzer - CDC looking for XMRV and MLV in lab workers!

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by CBS, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. Megan

    Megan Senior Member

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    Framing of the Research Question

    Cort, not having a go here, but I believe the above quote encapsulates a lot of what is wrong with many of the scientific arguments about XMRV/MLV and CFS (including among us patients).

    It seems to me many scientists are simply trying to answer the research question "Is XMRV associated with CFS". They are concerned with XMRV not CFS.

    If on the other hand they were concerned with CFS they would be asking, "Is XMRV or something other MLV related virus causing CFS? If not XMRV, then what is it in our blood that is reacting in those antibody tests?" THESE are the big questions for us.

    As a patient, I really don't care if it's XMRV, ABCD, or MLVZ. I just want them to find what it is as it could ultimately bring treatment for us.

    Since the Lo/Alter paper it has been clear that CFS might be about about a group of viruses far wider than XMRV. The WPI have clearly been saying for some time that many of their patients are also infected with other MLV's. But many scientists, such as the ones that sparked this thread, keep focusing XMRV (there would be a big hole in their theory if they didn't!). But so do many of us patients - are we adding to our own problems here?

    BTW I think the contamination explanation for differential in the patients vs controls is a weak argument - there are almost 10 studies now (not just CFS) all showing consistent low rates in controls. It seems too amazing to believe that they have all been accidentally contaminated at the same rate.
     
  2. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Lol he had some DAMN good points :)

    Yeah *EVERY* society inevitably forms "classes", lol, even the Soviets :p And yes America is most certainly a very class ridden nation nowadays, which utter shame as it's three founding documents are some of the greatest works of idealism and progress the world has ever seen, sigh.
    alas people like making an "us" and "them" outlook, to have someone to look down on etc, meh

    Oh on the British Upper Class yes they were morons, their ignorant and arrogant attitudes lead to utter slaughter on the fields of WW1...but...
    most of the officer corp, hell damn nearly all of it, came from the upper classes, and their young sons died in DROVES, leading those suicidal charges against machine guns etc. they had appalling causalty ratios, iirc about 5 times greater than the average infantrymen! Standing their waving a pistol instead of a rifle and in a different uniform to squaddies they were sitting ducks!!
    Crap, stupid system etc..but they were brave and regardless of their class, such slaughter of people's family is never ever good.
    Lot of parks around my area are monuments to fallen sons of minor nobility who died in that retarded war.

    My folks are working class and are thus now "superflous to demands" nowadays (those who didn't emigrate) and were treated little better than slaves with the literal "mine shops" using ratbag tactics to keep families in penury, the deaths and injuries in the mines and steelworks were horrendous and left terrible bitterness (ways folk died in the steelworks, often witnessed by my folks are...utterly nightmarish).
    Still, those young officers in WW1 did NOT deserve to die for that crap world they were born into :/

    Another insight into those times:
    Early in WW1, the pompous British sargeants made a mockery of the terribly messy German trenches, with sandbags, rubbish, steel plates and evne paint thrown everywhere!
    No, not the British way! men had to polish their cap badges so they gleamed! trench parapets had to be perfectly neat!
    So German snipers in their camouflaged and steel barricaded positions, had a field day blowing the idiot British NCO's heads off .
     
  3. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Originally Posted by Cort
    No, no, no Dr. Yes. That kind of immune response will not do. Think about it.....That kind of response is not necessarily specific to XMRV and they want something specific to XMRV do they not? END

    Cort, this over my head, but does not the research here suggest that the cytokine profiles matching, what they saw here in vitro actually suggest that some immune signatures actually do appear to be quite specific, though i do note the word similar is used in the paper? i may be off what i understand from this study. but i remembered it, and thought it was suggesting the opposite to what you was saying to Dr yes. Though as mentioned, my understanding is way to weak, to know. but thought it worth showing to you guys to see what you thought,


    Characterization of innate immune responses in Xenotropic Murine Leukemia
    Retrovirus-Related Virus (XMRV) infected individuals
    J. Mikovits1, V. Lombardi1, K. Hagen1, D. Goetz1, M. Marshall2, I. Barao-Silvestre1
    1 Whittemore Peterson Institute, Research, Reno, USA
    2 University of Nevada, Microbiology and Immunology, Reno, USA
    Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a debilitating disease manifested by inflammatory sequelae including innate immune
    activation, low natural killer cell numbers and function. We recently demonstrated the first direct isolation of an infectious
    gammaretrovirus, XMRV, from the blood of CFS patients. We have developed quantitative assays to detect XMRV
    replication and methods for infection in culture. Moreover, we found evidence of XMRV infection in >95% of the 141
    CFS patients tested to date. These data implicate a role for XMRV infection in the pathogenesis of CFS. We studied
    the interaction of XMRV with the immune system, first by identifying cellular targets of XMRV ex vivo by flow cytometry
    (FCM). We hypothesized that NK cells could be a target of infection and that infection of other PBMC cell types could
    lead to dysfunction of NK cells either directly or indirectly through the upregulation of inflammatory cytokines and
    chemokines, which are also a hallmark of this disease. We isolated leukocytes from XMRV infected individuals analyzed
    phenotypic differences from uninfected controls by FCM. Using purified primary B, T monocyte macrophage and dendritic
    cells and cell line models we infected with XMRV and profiled cytokine and chemokine expression by Luminex multiplex
    assays. We analyzed XMRV infection by quantitative RT-PCR and Intracellular FCM. Infection of PBMC in vitro results in
    a cytokine signature similar to that signature seen in the plasma of CFS patients. These data advance our understanding
    of the pathogenesis of CFS and may ultimately lead to new therapeutic interventions.
     
  4. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    yeah, and hwat happens is that Government_Minister_002 comes into power, elected after Government_Minister_001 got voted out of power
    Now, the new guy finds out from civil servants that the previous guy had done somehting utterly appalling! But if the new guy does not keep up the conspiracy of silence on, say Gulf War Syndrome, the resulting FURY from the public will bring down the government, and himself, and he'll get blamed.
    How many people have the balls in that circumstances to tell the truth?

    Especially as he'd know the media are all mostly corrupt, useless mouthpieces for corporate intersts who own the media AND own the political parties by campaign contributions and also by knowing about criminal or embarassing peccadilos

    how many politicians have they caught picking men up in public toilets in airports and kept quiet about for leverage, eh? lol. Note US case of that where it actually came out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig#2007_arrest_and_consequences, it was the hypocrisy of the person that made it darkly funny, hehe.
    My fave being the anti-gay evangelical who was caught out as having indulged in snorting crystal meth off a male prostitute's ass! haha omg you cannot make this stuff up, it's priceless!! :p
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

    so you can well imagine there's a LOT of blackmail held on many officials. People are people: we all have our weaknesses, flaws, screw ups and just plain differences that are societally "incorrect", alas those can be used to manipulate folk by unscrupulous ratbags.

    for example several major US newspapers/media outlets sat on, deliberately squashed reports of US activities in the Middle East ebing cirminal, heinous or corrupt, to keep up support for the wars etc.
    for example, see VERY nasty situation regarding a "security contractor" being involved in procuring children for prostitution, which the Washington Post hush up
    http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_texas_company_helped.php
    (least you HEAR about this kind of stuff in the Western democracies)

    ergo: conspiracies go on ALL the damn time. It's literally how the world works, alas. It's just not "Men In Black and Queen of England is a reptilian alien" kind of stuff, lol ;)
     
  5. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    First of all. It's safe to say the crap just hit the fan in a cleanroom! WIsh I had an illustration for that one, but I don't.

    Secondly. It is possible that many of the government workers have no idea they are being manipulated. The Special interests have leverage on some key people in the CDC or wherever, and have others that just cooperate for whatever reason.

    Everybody else at the CDC and government can probably be kept in the dark with all the bogus science the CDC had been cranking out for all these years, and of course with the help of corporate owned media.

    Everybody is waking up now, around the world I might ad, including those who have been hood-winked.
     
  6. Grape Funk

    Grape Funk Senior Member

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    I started laughing when you got to this point. It is crazy though, along with the original "false positives" the CDC had, i'm sort of new here and never had gotten the chance to see those charts.
     
  7. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    All good points. I agree the big picture for us is always 'What is causing CFS?" and those antibody results could be pointing in a fruitful direction. I hate to say - to be always a bearer of bad tidings but I talked to someone in the field who felt, believe it or not, that they're weren't pointing to MLV's but might be pointing to a common virus. Even if that's still an indication of something pathogenic going on.

    The flip side of the antibody question is that few groups are finding increased antibody levels either - which is kind of weird because that is an entirely different situation from PCR. Nobody is suggesting that the antibodies are contaminants. So why is there the discrepancy? Its an odd situation.

    The WPI looked for antibodies to an MLV protein that they thought should be in XMRV. Later antibody tests have looked for antibodies to that protein and more that are specifically associated with XMRV. They should be picking up the MLV antibodies but for some reason they haven't.....

    There's no real good news on that front. I think later studies have been incorporating the Alter/Lo findings into the picture - have to check though.
     
  8. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    For sure they could be specific and I imagine, if XMRV works out they will be shown to be specific. Its just the problem right now is convincing the research world that XMRV is real and the only way to do that is to for other labs to match the WPI's antibody and PCR results because those should be at least very specific for XMRV. A test showing a pattern of immune activation doesn't denote what pathogen caused it. To determine that they have to show pathogen specific PCR/antibody results.

    I wonder if there are any efforts to do the entire culture tests. I imagine there are and the BWG appears to have included them in their next round.
     
  9. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Remember that this is the spiked sample - the samples in which they spiked them with a certain amount of XMRV and then looked for it and all the labs showed they could the virus when that was done. When you move to patients samples only the WPI and the CDC (ironically), in a few instances, were able to do that with the PCR test. Yes, theoretically - based on the above chart they all should have been able to find it. I think that was confusing to them and everybody...theoretically everybody should be finding it.

    That was why they started looking a storage and processing issues. I think there's still one outstanding issue but they basically felt there wasn't a problem with storage and sample processing and have moved forward.
     
  10. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    My mouth gaped open....I felt like I was back in the, whatever, 'middle ages' when it was OK to publically make comments like that...
     
  11. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Well if Cingoz and Coffin and Stoye are right then it all started at Case Western University sometime between 1996-1999 - as these researchers built the first cell line to use to study prostate cancer. For all the grief it may have caused - and we shall see about that - it's been used alot - its been mentioned in over 200 citations since then.

     
  12. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    One thing seems certain about the culture studys in the BWG phase 3, i would be very surprised if all labs dont correlate probably 100% because what are we talking about here, growing the virus in a dish, either it shows up, and its a positive result, or it does not, and its negative. How can any of the labs mess this one up i wonder ?

    Important point here Cort, if these immune signatures compared well in vitro, to paitents samples, then how can that be, from a standpoint of a live virus contaminating blood samples, that just doesnt make a lot of sense, because if this is really correlating, then xmrv is indeed in humans. or the correlation has nothing to do with xmrv but something else ? seems too much of a coincedence though, that in vitro its behaving in a similair manner to patients.

    I find that very hard to dimiss or explain. the only way you can explain that surely, is there is another virus mimicking xmrv ? very weird. seems a bit unlikely
     
  13. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    To what common virus do this antibodies to a gamma retrovirus protein point?

    With which protein of that common virus does the gamma antibody crossreact?

    Are antibody tests for this common virus available?
     
  14. Navid

    Navid Senior Member

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    thanks DB....My outrage matches yours. I sent a scathing Note to that "AIDS" woman and stoye...it was very cathartic.
     
  15. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    This doesn't mean that no one could have been infected with XMRV before 1996 - 1999? I must have missed something.
     
  16. LaurelW

    LaurelW Senior Member

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    That's what I've been wondering too, and someone on another thread mentioned--what about all those outbreaks in the 80s????
     
  17. jace

    jace Off the fence

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    Remember Alter and Lo's samples at the NIH? 15 year old samples, with MuLV-related fragments? In patients with ME/CFS? And when some of those same patients were retested last year, they still had the infection, though slightly mutated, as one would expect with a HGRV?

    Fifteen years - that takes us to 1996. Never mind DeFreitas's findings from more than five years earlier.

    This "origin is lab recombinant" argument will not last long, IMHO.
     
  18. Ernie

    Ernie *****

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    If this is indeed was from Judy, hopefully there was permission to post.
     
  19. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    The people on here that have been sick for 20 or more years couldn't have up and got infected 10 years or more after the became sick. The 1996 - 1999 theory is impossible in my eyes or virutually impossible.

    What if Alex theory is correct. What if the virus has gone undetected in the human population for so long, that in fact humans have passed the virus back into the labs. We have 7% and probably more of healthy humans infected. Why does PWC's test so high? Maybe we have a genetic flaw that allows XMRV to wreak havoc on our bodies, especially when co-infections are present. We have been subjected to a lot more vaccines in the last 20 years or so (I'm not saying the vaccines carry the virus), but they could expose a weak link in our immune system possibly. Look at all the environmental things we could have been exposed to (pesticides, herbcides, overly processed chemical laden foods and all BPA's) exerted a tremendous load on our immune systems. Just an idea.

    How do they know that the xenograft wasn't contaminated by a lab worker. I'm not buying this contamination thing completely. The virus is there and if it is proven to be infectious, does it matter where it came from? I don't care just get it out of me!!! (at least make it behave)
     
  20. CBS

    CBS Senior Member

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    The natural world outside of these institutions is one very large lab all on its own.
     

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