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Why would ME cause Type II muscle atrophy when inactivity causes Type I atrophy?

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Rossy191276, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276

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    Brisbane, Australia
    Hi Everyone

    My recent muscle biopsy of my thigh has led to what seems like very relevant research findings that should be followed up urgently by researchers looking at muscle biopsies.

    I am bed bound and had been for 5 months before the biopsy.

    One of my results was: Severe Type II Muscle Atrophy

    First I looked for other research and found this 1991 study: Mitochondrial abnormalities in the postviral fatigue syndrome* W. M. H. Behan1, I. A. R. More1, and P. O. Behan

    In it they found that 39 of 50 patients that they classified as CFS has Type II muscle atrophy

    But here's the thing...

    In the most recent 2 papers that I could find that differentiated between the type of circumstances that result in specifically Type 1 or Type 2 muscle fibre atrophy...
    Muscle type and fiber type specificity in muscle wasting
    Author links open overlay panelStefanoCiciliota1Alberto C.Rossia12Kenneth A.DyaraBertBlaauwabStefanoSchiaffinoac

    Muscle type and fiber type specificity in muscle wasting.
    Ciciliot S1, Rossi AC, Dyar KA, Blaauw B, Schiaffino S.

    They explain that disuse/inactivity results in such more Type 1 atrophy than Type II atrophy so one would expect to see a lot more Type 1 atrophy in Muscle Biopsies of ME patients. Yet on the limited evidence so far and certainly in my case where I hadn't used legs for 5 months that doesn't seem to be the case.

    Interestingly, the 2nd paper generalises the group of conditions that cause Type II atrophy as Malnutrition and Inflammation which fits the Metabolic/Immune ME theories pretty well.

    I am not a biomedical mind but they mention different pathways which may contribute to Type II atrophy including TGFb (for those of you who are scientific minds you might be interested in reading these papers as at least in my view they counter the deconditioning arguments nicely if research groups doing muscle biopsies find that we have Type II atrophy and might point towards factors that are contributing to this.
     
    PatJ, Silence, ErdemX and 4 others like this.
  2. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

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    Hi @Rossy191276

    Some questions if that's ok with you :

    1. Have you ever performed an Ultrasound in the Liver/Gallbladder Area?
    2. Have you ever seen white or light-coloured stools?
    3. Has any of your close relatives removed the Gallbladder or had Chronic Liver disease problems?
    4. Do you get the Flu every year after you got ME/CFS?
    5. Have you ever had a test called Total Bile Acids? (TBA)
    6. Have you ever were infected with the Hepatitis or EBV virus?
    7. Finally, Have you ever performed a test called "Fibroscan" ?


    Thanks
     
  3. Runner5

    Runner5

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    PNW
    Sounds like you went through a lot of testing and interesting muscle studies. I get flu like symptoms when my muscles break down maybe that's why I always have flu like symptoms ;-P

    Are you doing better now?
     
  4. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276

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    Brisbane, Australia
    Hi @mariovitali

    1.) I have had PET scan of whole body which was clear
    2.) No
    3.) No
    4.) No I stopped getting the flu when I got the illness I have now (I hadn't been 'normal' sick in 2.5 years until I got an infection a month ago)
    5.) I am not sure... my doctor does a lot of blood testing every couple of months and I know it includes some acids but not sure which ones
    6.) I have had EBV before
    7.) No

    Thanks for your reply
     
  5. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276

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    Brisbane, Australia
    Hi @Runner5

    No I am bedbound unable to talk (-:
     
  6. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I'm interested in where these questions come from.

    I have wondered about my gallbladder status since I have a few gallstones.

    I have had EBV before, it happened twice in a row actually.


    Just wondering how these are linked?
     
  7. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

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    @drob31

    According to the Research i've been doing, the Liver may be the culprit for a very significant percentage of ME/CFS Patients. Numerous cases have had problems with Gallbladder, hepatitis, Cholestasis, NAFLD etc. You may search Phoenix Rising to see the numerous posts about Liver issues such as NAFLD.

    Apparently Liver Disease has been ruled out by Researchers but it seems to me that this was done on a basis of Blood tests. The only way to assess Liver function is through a Liver Biopsy or -the second best- with a Fibroscan. Your Liver may have significant problems but in the same time Liver enzymes may be entirely normal.

    Please also note that i posted here numerous Fibroscans and Total Bile Acids tests which were not normal (suggesting Cholestasis and Liver Fibrosis)

    @Rossy191276

    If possible, get a Fibroscan test and make also sure you had the Total Bile Acids test to rule out any Liver issues.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    pattismith likes this.
  8. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    @Rossy191276 what are your thyroid tests?

    I found that type 2 fibre atrophy can be found either with hypo or hyperthyroidism:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC475797/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12034059
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3807010/

    Myositis-as-a-Presenting-Manifestation-of-Severe-Hypothyroidism-A-Case-Report-and-Review-of-the-Literature

    " Frequent symptoms include fatigue, proximal muscle weakness, myalgia, tenderness, and stiffness [3-6] . Necrosis, inflammatory infiltrates, type II fiber atrophy, increased numbers of internal nuclei , and “core- like” structures in type I fibers are common findings in muscle biopsies [3, 7] . Treatment of these patients consists of administration of thyroid hormone and in some cases also corticosteroids. It can take several months for the muscle symptom s to resolve"
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018

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