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Why the potassium drop with the methyl Bs?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. lolasana

    lolasana

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    Thanks adreno. I'll check for it at the local HFS, but it looks like something I might have to order online. I guess the 99mg would work in the meanwhile. I just figured that if people were taking around 1000mg a day, you would probably burn through the 99mg bottle pretty quickly!

    I'm also trying to focus on higher potassium foods (but those without the folate). I ate a sweet potato (~500mg potassium) as a snack today when I felt a little light-headed and it did seem to help. But I'm on my way to the HFS to get some actual pills, I probably won't always have a sweet potato handy!
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Madie,

    Vegetable source folates, fruits, veggies, nuts, grains et al contain a lot of folinic acid. Some contain a lot more. Dark green leafies are (in)famous for their folate content of their foliage.

    Meat on the other hand contains methylfolate. That is the reason I survived. Had to have been in a northern tribe that ate lots of meat in primative times to survive with my genes.

    I find if I eat reaonable amounts of various fruit and veggies and take 3200mcg at each meal and a toal of 12,800 daily I am so far maintaining. The chelitis is almost completely healed for only the 2nd time in my life. I hope it goes all the way. It will be interesting to see what healing can take place downstream of that, completely uncharted territory for me.
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd,

    Do you know if cow's milk contains methylfolate vs. folinic acid? Fish? Or if you have a link, I'll go figure it out! I couldn't find a link myself.

    No wonder I feel fabulous when I live on meat.

    Edit: Milk and fish contain methylfolate, and if I understand it right, no folinic acid. I put links on Freddd's Paradoxical...thread.
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    iHerb is a good and cheap source.
  5. lolasana

    lolasana

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    Bay Area, CA
  6. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I'll bet you have the ACE defect! I wish I could check to correlate mine but I haven't been able to figure it out. But most of the sickest PWF who have orthostatic symptoms have this defect and it causes excessive aldosterone rises which in turn, deplete potassium, increase sodium (edema & water retention issues), and causes hypotension and orthostatic symptoms. Later on in life, these folks usually have hi blood pressure and I know this issue only because we use ACE inhibitors or ARB's (angitensin receptor Blockers) for many patients with high BP and these are ironically, the people who used to say "ya know, I had low BPs my whole life, and had head rushes all the time when I got up but here I am with High BP now, go figure!"

    It would be interesting to know since addressing the adrenal issues that stem from this constant increase in aldosterone (which depletes cortisol) as well as targeting the ACE, might solve a lotta problems for many with those "POTS" symptoms. I know people who use regular electrolyte replacement (heavier on magnesium & potassium) and "ora Kidney" a kidney supporter, that do well whereas some seem to do well on those NeuroScience combinations like ?Travacor (or something like that). I only have occasional symptoms like that but my neighbor's wife had that problem and was near bed-ridden. I don't know what she used exactly but I know my doctor didn't give her any of the Yasko stuff to treat that and she's still doing great now and is back to running her marathons (Boy, don't I wish I had the time to do that kind of stuff!).

    Hope you find some relief,
    Angela
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Angela.

    You might be interested to know that a few years ago 46 people in the Yahoo cfs_yasko group voluntarily posted their SNP results from the Yasko panel. Of the 46 people, 32 were (+/+) for the ACE SNP, and 7 were (+/-). This SNP was more common than any of the others on the panel.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I'm getting very interested in genetic research, and really appreciate your comments and insights. Unfortunately I know very little about this subject. Could you do me a favor and include the SNPs when you mention a polymorphism? I don't know which SNPs to look for. Are you talking about these:

    http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1799752

    Those are not genotyped on my 23andme profile.
  9. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Thank you Dr. Vank, I am very interested. Back when my daughter's results were in my doctor told me that out of all of the SNPs, the ACE was the most commonly seen mutation in the sickest people with autism or CFS and yet, my son didn't have it & he was SEVERELY autistic but Yasko even made a a note of this being unusual. My daughter (who was mildly autistic) did have this deletion and boy, is there a difference in anxiety with it! She was the kid who started biting her nails at 2 years old and always worried, she also has a terrible memory for learning, which is apparently very common with the ACE as well. When we started her on the ACE RNA she was like an entirely different child and I only use 3-4 drops twice a day (my doctor said this was fine & would save money). So many things disappeared that week that I would have never dreamed were related to the ACE defect.

    Is there a way to find that posting of all the genes?

    Thank you,
    Angela
  10. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    "Those are not genotyped on my 23andme profile"

    I know, which is one reason its impossible to just use the 23&me and correlate them with Yasko's tests, plus they look at the other side of the DNA strand or something so that their positives are her negatives and vice versa but it doesn't always pan out like this so you can't even cross reference them that way! What a nightmare! My doctor is actually quite brilliant and couldn't figure it out after months of research so I didn't feel so bad when I failed at it too. But I know she'd love for someone else to do it since she wants a cheaper way to test her patients so she can spend more money treating them then testing them. I agree with that theory for sure! Plus, I'd know if I have the ACE, ACAT, SHMT, etc.

    I think that number would be on that cheatsheet list that I posted before but put below again. I never remember things like those numbers and when we get our Yasko results, my kid's are all listed under the simpler ones (MTHFR, ACE, NOS) and I'd have to research each one before I listed them for you. I just wrote down simple terms alongside each one as I learned them so have things like:

    MTHFR A1298C AKA Motherf*%@er gene, doesn't convert SAM to SAMe properly and causes BH4 to drop so clean up in the urea cycle is down and poor communication in the system without enough dopamine, serotonin, & norepi

    ACE AKA Anxiety and adrenal crisis/response with this as well as high cortisol and adrenal fatigue, poor memory (esp for learning), and head rush central.

    That sort of thing sticks in my head whereas rs 12985 doesn't at all. I don't remember if my doctor lists those or not either now that I think of it but she does list the major issues with each one so you might want to check her site out again too.

    Angela



    Gene Yasko
    Name Yasko
    normal 23andMe
    Name 23andMe
    normal
    COMT V158M G(-) rs4680
    G (plus)
    COMT H62H C(-) rs4633
    C (plus)
    COMT 61 G(-) rs769224
    G (plus)
    VDR Taq T(+) (rs731236)
    VDR Fok rs10735810 ?

    MAO-A R297R G(-) T(+) rs6323
    G (plus)
    ACAT 1-02 A(+) N/A
    ACE Del16 I(-) rs1799752
    I (plus)
    MTHFR C677T C(-) T(+) rs1801133
    G (minus)
    MTHFR 3 C(-) N/A
    MTHFR A1298C A(-) rs1801131
    T (minus)
    MTR A2756G A(-) rs1805087
    A (plus)
    MTRR A66G A(-) rs1801394
    A (plus)
    MTRR H595Y C(-) rs10380
    C (plus)
    MTRR K350A A(-) rs162036?
    A (plus)
    MTRR R415T C(-) rs2287780?
    C (plus)
    MTRR S257T T(-) (rs2303080) ?
    MTRR 11 G(-) N/A
    BHMT 1 (-) rs492842? ?
    (minus)
    BHMT 2 C(-) rs6894156?
    C (plus)
    BHMT 4 (-) rs6875201 or
    rs379754 (plus)

    BHMT 8 T(+) rs3797546 or
    rs567754
    (plus)
    (plus)
    AHCY 1 A(-) N/A
    AHCY 2 T(-) rs1205357
    (plus)
    AHCY 19 A(-) N/A
    CBS C699T C(-) rs234706
    (plus)
    CBS A360A C(-) T(+) (rs1801181)
    SUOX S370S (-) N/A
    SHMT C1420T G(-) (rs1979277) ?
    NOS D298E (-) rs1799983 ?
    (plus)
  11. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I have tge ACE defect and two others that cause hypertension. I had problems with tension my whole life...including severe PMS with severe water retention. Now that I am past menopause (which is PMS forever) I went from perfect bp to high stage 3 hypertension in one day (at first only during - you guessed it - PMS!). I now think PMS is hypertension under 50 years of age. I still have tension problems but not as unrelenting as I now have a clue. I used to go from doctor to doctor for help with tension and shaking and no one could help me so I went to a new one every year. That is the main part of why I got my genes tested. I have had electrolyte problems my whole life too but I thought that was mainly due to my VDR mutation. But my doctor says the sickest people in his practice have a CBS mutation, and I have 2 of those as well.

    I am disgusted by all the frickin TON of time my bad health has taken from my life. It seems I am always falling into some state that I have to research to get out of and if I dont solve it, I will die (so cant ignore it). My Aunt's life was exactly the same way. She never once did not have a horrible health problem going on, and often 3 or more at once. I know they know how to fix genes now - they have done it on animals. I wish they would hurry up already and do it for people!
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I want a cloned new body with all the genetic flaws fixed!
  13. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    Virginia, US
    Angela and Freddd,

    My dauther has an ACE deletion. I hve not visited Yasko's board for a while and need to. She has the anxiety as well and didn't realize the ACE connection. I've been wondering how to address electrolytes with her.. Ive been confused aout the sodium-potassium relationship.. I think they tend to dump potassium in the beginning but then can retain if kidney damage but not clear on what causes the kidney damage so have been afraid to give her too much salt and too much potassium. I think Ive thought too much potassium could cause kidney damage?

    Ive got to figure this out because both my kids are in methylation supps and I just pulled th folinic out for them for a while. My son shows enlarged red blood cells, folate deficiency on his Organic Acids Test.. we didnt draw a blood and not sure how relevant. His MMA is low but he's been supplementing and Im not sure abou this, but I think I read in the book, Could It Be B12, that MMA can go down when supplementing B12? So not a good measure once supplementation starts.. or was that when supplementing folic acid? My son has been on sublingual B12 for a few months before the OAT test and my daughter just gets the MB12 in the Pure encapsulations B Complex Plus with metafolin. She shows fine on OAT and red blood cell size for B12.. I wonder any other way to tell if this is an issue so I know to start her own sublinguals My son, Im thinking is more like me genetically.
  14. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I wouldn't think the MMA went down because of the folate/folinic but I guess its possible since it goes from the MTHFR C677T to the SHMT (processes to folinic) and then travels to the MTR region where methyl B12 comes into play. I guess if he has a SHMT defect, it could be the folinic. I like how my doc explains this process of vitamin change. She has a firefighter in her family so uses this:

    Each time you look at the SNPs, think of a bucket brigade so that each firefighter is critical to passing on the next bucketful of water. But lets say one of these is out & a man can't pass a bucket or he's passing it on half full due to a back injury, then the next man is faced with passing on less water and if he has any problems, the guy in front of him may not get a bucket at all. A full defect is like the guy not even getting a bucket and the partial is like the man with the back injury whose sloshing half the water out of the bucket. Each one depends on the last to provide what they need to move forward. Also, its like a promotion for the vitamins so that just like a regular old firefighter can go through a ceremony to be promoted to a captain, then a battalion chief, then a chief, etc., so do the vitamins go through transitions to change into something else higher but they are still the same. Like with folate. It starts as folate and goes through the C677T and is an active version and then onto the SHMT where it's folinic and then onto the MTR where it changes once again (with the help of methyl B12) and so on. But its still folate. And pending on where your bucket brigade is out will tell you which folate you need so those without the SHMT probably don't need folinic while the ones with the MTHFR's need 5 MTHF. Does that make sense? Hopefully I didn't skip any of her steps to make it less understood.

    As for the ACE, it really is a biggie for high BP, anxiety, electrolyte problems, etc. They don't start retaining potassium for a long time, well until the system is falling apart from it so in the years before they just dump potassium & retain salt. They also constantly trigger fight or flight and as a former ICU nurse, I am very familiar with what this looks like in patients later on. The constant triggering leads to poor adrenal output as they are just plain pooped out so this is one big reason why so many have adrenal fatigue, but of course, isn't the only reason. If you have the CBS or SUOX on top of that--whoa Nelly! Its going to trigger fight or flight even more with the increased sulfites that leads to more aldosterone output and then more cortisol. For those who have gut bacteria that make hydrogen sulfide, its potentially worse and this is where that whole "hydrogen Sulfide stupor" can come into play. For those who don't have a good urea cycle (NOS) or their MTHFR A1298C isn't lending enough BH4 to clean the urea cycle up, you really have some problems as the waste keeps building but has no way to be cleaned. My doc said it's similar to an oil spill cuz everything spills into the woodlands, waterways, etc., and in the body its spilling over to the blood stream and tissues or nerves which leads to brain & nerve irritation and all kinds of problems.

    Its amazing how one or two defects don't cause many big problems and just cause accumulation over decades so that maybe mom or dad have heart disease or lethagy in their 60's or 70's but having several defects seems to compound the problem. And, pending on toxic exposure, you'll have problems in different ways earlier or later. Like if you have an organic, home made food & clean living sort of childhood and have many of these defects, it may not be until your in your 30's that you'll get really sick from not living so purely and having the mix of poor functioning defects that can't seem to take care of business like they should. For others, their defects are so bad that they show up earlier, like after too many processed foods and vaccines when their 3 or 4. This is why they'll never find that "autism or CFS" gene, its not a couple of things its a lot of different things and we all got there differently.

    My doctor doesn't think they all need to be treated as vigorously as Dr. Yasko does but she does seem to focus on the ones that led you to your current poor health and are likely to be a big issue later. She said some of these defects are probably ok and have evolved over time for a reason but having a certain combination makes you susceptible to illness. If we treated them all, we'd be on 150 supplements forever and that doesn't make sense to her, or me, for that matter. Plus, we don't know what treating them all will turn out like later. It might be that treating something too aggressively can change the way another area has adapted to compensate so that it might be harmful later. I hadn't really thought of it like that before so I like that she's thinking of the possibilitis instead of just playing God with this medicine.

    Anyhow, hope this helps,
    Angela
  15. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I forgot to mention that its the longstanding high blood pressure that leads to kidney damage & this often takes decades but in some cases, those with high BPs of say 180/100 in their early 20's can have problems earlier, as can those with childhood type 1 diabetes, etc. So generally, its those consistent BP elevations that creep up over time through the years that accumulate and cause this damage. You shouldn't harm her with reasonable additions of salt in her meals or potassium and she probably craves salt as my daughter does. This is due in part, to their need to keep their blood volume up so that they don't feel woozy when they get up. In fact, many times, the treatment for POTS is taking florinef (which raises BP) and additional salt to get the volume up to offset those lower BPs causing head rushes so much with sitting or laying to standing.
  16. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    This is why having the genes done is so nice & I hope we'll have this for more people someday. If you had known, you could have upped your potassium earlier on and added progesterone cream during PMS times as this has literally saved my life! The prog cream helps balance the estrogen surges during this time and helps balance glutamate. I used to feel anxious that whole week and couldn't sleep and after I added in Bionativus trace minerals and prog cream, it changed my life! I also use Ora kidney to support them better. I know that many women on the Yasko site swear by the anxiety RNA since that's supposed to literally erase hot flashes and anxiety caused by the ACE but I do well with the others so haven't tried them. I did use that with my daughter early on but found that once I added in the ACE RNA for her, she no longer needed it!
  17. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Nuh-ah! Progesterone makes me retain water which raises my blood pressure. It is not so simple as that! I would have taken DHEA each and every PMS if I had know it was a bp thing and what I know now. Instead I was taking sleeping pills so that at least each night I could loosen up...I was so tight I could burst! My spine could not support my back! It was gruesome. But not one soul ever knew. I just had to go through life pretending to be ok because no one would believe me anyway. I could not ever find a doctor who had a clue either. I was uptight from the VDR gene though and found the PMS remedy of a 3xdaily dose of calcium helped quite a bit.

    I dont have hot flashes. I heard the 1g E I take may be preventative. But you know I also take DHEA so I do have all my hormones.

    You have to understand your kidneys. I had all these tension problems while having perfect blood pressure (eccept I doubt I had bp taken during pms because I felt so wretched I would not make or woul dcancel appointments so I guess I cant be sure). I have had my kidnies tested with the C-statin test (I think that's what it's called) offered by www.lef.org. The creatninine test is no good - it doesn't tell you your kidnies are in trouble until it is too late. he C-statin test showed my kidneys are fine. Yet if my bp climbs due to some goof I made, I cannot eat (except I have to eat enough to prevent ketones or my bp still rises). I have SERIOUS kidney problems if my bp is not kept down. I have to be very careful to take exactly the right supplements since I cant eat and each supplement could raise my bp before it gets a chance to help. I COULD get in a state where it would not be possible to take what I need to save my kidneys. Very serious.

    I'm going to see if I can get a prescription for BH4 to prevent it. I wonder if BH4 keeps? Like if I was to get some and hoard it for emergencies only?

    Rydra

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