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Why the potassium drop with the methyl Bs?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    You have to go by the elemental potassium. The gluconate (or whatever) is just a carrier.
     
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    In these trials, potassium bicarbonate was given to postmenopausal women at doses ranging from 30-120 mmol/d. How much would that translate to in mg?

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/1/254.long
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/2/831.long

    According to this "article" (they sell potassium bicarbonate) that would translate to between 3-12 grams of potassium bicarbonate, yielding between 1.17 and a whopping 4.68 grams per day. Can anyone confirm this?

    I indeed thought that potassium pills/caps were limited to 99mg, but this product on iHerb has 1.35 grams of potassium bicarbonate, yielding about 525mg of elemental potassium. The recommend dose is 4-8 caps per day (2-4 grams of potassium):

    http://www.iherb.com/Life-Enhancement-Potassium-Basics-240-Capsules/37917?at=0

    Seems to me that potassium might be much safer than we thought.
     
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno ; The site purebulk.com provides conversion charts for estimating the amount of elemental potassium in certain compounds. ( I no longer purchase from them, though...expensive.) The most extreme amounts of potassium used in treatments were used by Dr. Gerson,for a variety of conditions, most notably cancer. I read from one source that he added between 3.5-14 Grams daily... This in addition to many glasses of vegetable juices. He also used a variety of other supplements : Iodine, enzymes, niacin, etc. Its also note worthy that he used daily injections of B12 and liver extract on his patients. He thought that the reason his patients reported so little pain was because of the coffee enemas included in the protocol, but I have found the B12 and potassium to be most effective with pain, both psychological and physiological.
    Although Gerson Therapy and many other healing diets restrict sodium, I haven't felt well with them. I need sodium chloride as well. I've read that people with pituitary dysfunction may have this.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Adreno,

    Seems to me that potassium might be much safer than we thought.

    My worry is falling off the low end which can be fairly quickly fatal if it goes too low and stays there. Everything I have ever read says that it takes a year or more of taking drastically too much every day to even begin to approach a problem on the high end. Potasssium is far safer on the the upside than YOU thought. My kidneys dump it too fast for the high end to be a problem. I'm on a diuretic that makes them kick out even more.
     
  5. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    YES! AMEN! I totally agree.. I just went through a three week period where my electrolytes were fluctuacting wildly and it was maddening. I had to pesker my doc to approve a weekly blood draw when I really felt I should have been monitored daily. It was a scary ride until I figured out how to balance them well myself. I would have LOVED to have had a way to measure them at home myself!
     
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    i was researching potassium the other day & some doctor said that it's difficult to raise potassium by food alone on the website I was on.
     
  7. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Not true. My brother-in-law juices and was told by his doctor that he has too much potassium in his blood as a result. Too much scares me too. We need an at-home test. Aren't there any chemists out there? I'd be willing to prick my finger 5 times a day if a drop of blood would
    tell me anything...

    Rydra
     
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    One thing I'm wondering about is why does the prescription forms of mb12 and methylfolate (metanx, cerefolin) not seem to cause this drop in potassium? In clinical trials, there has been no mention of this side effect. Is it because it's not being used in PWCs, but rather diabetics and alzheimers patients?
     
    leela likes this.
  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    A word of caution: on ACE inhibitors for high blood pressure any dietary potassium can result in a potassium spike. I am not sure how much of a problem this is, or at what level that spike would occur, but its a caution with this type of drug. This of course only applies to the minority of patients who have high blood pressure and are using ACE inhibitors. I am going to be talking to my ME doc about stopping this drug and trying potassium and an adrenal inhibitor instead. Bye, Alex
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I've seen them advertised on the internet, home blood tests, in the USA at least. Of course becoming aware of what it feels like for the potassium to drop becomes the eaiest and quickest with practice. I admit, at the beginning I would have welcomed a test. By the third time with spasms and usually a day leadin senstations before they start I don't get nailed often these days.
     
  11. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    This does not work if you are trying to help someone who does not know what it feels like or if they are on powerful painkillers. We need a simple at-home test.

    Rydra
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    Oral mb12, say taken at 2mg (the amount in Metanx), will cause absorbtion of 20-25 mcg typically. A 1 mg sublingual held for 45-120 minutes can result in absorbtion of 150-250mcg. That casues a whole lot more startup a whole lot faster.

    Further, as a person who has had their potassium drop from 4.5 to 3.8 would be told "no problem" you are in range. When I drop to 4.2 or below I, and many others have terrible problems. As all the research done for 50 years with cyanocbl and hydroxcbl indicate that hypokalemia is "rare" when correcting MCV they are not looking for it. If they were they would diagnose by test and it may not be "hypokalemia" by test. The person would have stopped Metanx due to severeity of side effects and be corrected by the time back into the docs office in a few weeks. But since they KNOW it is "RARE" they won't look and if they look anyway may not find technical hypokalemia. If the person were having a severe problem they could be dead before the appointment time comes around. There are a lot of hypokalemia references all over the web related to mb12 so it isn't unrecognized.

    Is it because it's not being used in PWCs, but rather diabetics and alzheimers patients

    No, it's becasue they don't take enough mb12 or the cofactors needed to allow healing so, if healing happens at all it is very slow and stop and start.
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,



    This does not work if you are trying to help someone who does not know what it feels like

    There is a learning curve and they have to be willing to learn. Also, people don't listen well.

    if they are on powerful painkillers

    Completely irelevant unless they are abusing it to the point of insensibity. I've been on morphine the entire time I've been doing this and it makes no difference to potassium or awareness of it.

    http://hkpp.org/test-K-cardy-meter
    http://www.livestrong.com/potassium-test/
     
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Metanx should be taken twice daily, so the doses amount to 4mg mb12, 6mg methylfolate and 70mg P5P daily. Here's the abstract:

    So it looks like healing did occur.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    Yes, some healing did occur. Methylb12 has been verified in studies of having dose proportionate effectivness over the range of 1 to 3,000mcg net absorbtion or injected. Further research has extended that to 50,000mcg/day. What I have found in myself and others is that there is bi-modal response; 10-3000mcg net absorbed or injected, and 7500mcg-50,000mcg injected or net absorbtion CNS effective in some people. Thankyou for posting this new study.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...h-footnotes-surveys-of-peer-reviewed-research
    The dosage for clinical effect is 1500-6000 mcg per day. No significant therapeutic advantage appears to occur from dosages exceeding this maximum dose. Methylcobalamin has been administered orally, intramuscularly, and intravenously; however, positive clinical results have been reported irrespective of the method of administration. It is not clear whether any therapeutic advantage is gained from the non-oral methods of administration.

    Another study of mb12 treating peripheral neuropathy used doses of 120mcg and 1500mcg daily. Both were effective, 1500mcg was more effecftive.
     
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    If you liked that study, you'll probably like this one as well:

    As you quoted, the dosage for clinical effects is 1500-6000mcg. But in your opinion/experience more is even more effective? Do you have references to the studies using 50,000mcg?

    When you say 10-3000mcg net absorbed, how much sublingual mb12 would we have to take to achieve that dose?

    I also found this study interesting;

    Here it's stated that you need to achieve a threshold dose of 100nM. Again, I'm not good at chemistry, but someone I know calculated this to be about 5000mcg for an average sized person. Now, that is 5000mcg which has to be bioavailable. Considering absorption and excretion, how much would we have to ingest to get to this level in tissues?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    I'm adding these things into the peer reviewd papers thread crediting them to you. One of the recent posters asked if we had such, we didn't so now I'm collecting the things and putting them there. Thankyou for your efforts in this regard


    As you quoted, the dosage for clinical effects is 1500-6000mcg. But in your opinion/experience more is even more effective? Do you have references to the studies using 50,000mcg?

    There are about half a dozen Japanese papers that can be found on google scholar with methylcobalamin, 50mg and ALS, MS and some others. High dose methylcobalamin and variations. Also try metcbl, mecocbl, CH3cbl and any other variations you find. There are some studies currently under way.

    As I said, the paper already posted where linked says 1500-6000mcg. Various studies come up with various ranges taken various ways. I did a series of sublingual tablets from 1mg to 100mg over several series through the years. I have done urine colorimetry comparing the visble amount of mb12 or adb12 in the urine to injected doses ranging from 2mg to 60mg (2 to 180mg/day). Another person did a test of 500mg IV infusion. He called the results "lurid". I would believe that. 60mg is plenty lurid. Can you imagine using multiple 35,000,000mcg doses to flush out cyanide?

    I always qualify the doses as compared to injected doses. So as I did a series for both sublingual and injections comparing color, I calibrated the sublinguals by color and by effectiveness.

    As I was hypersensitive to quantities of mb12 at the time I did the lower dosage series I can give a pretty decent approximation and these have been verified by others. The absorbtion percentage over many many comparisons ranged from a low of 10% to a high of 33% for times running from 45 minutes to 120+ minutes. The most typical numbers were 15% to 25% of the 5 star mb12 brands. So a 1mg Jarrow or Enzymatic Therapy had an absorbtion of about 150-250mcg. And almost nobody can say these are not one big kick in the pants. Clearly 150mcg is theraputic. A 5mg Jarrow yields about 750-1250mcg, which is fully equivalent to a 1mg mb12 subcutaneous injection of equally good quality of mb12. I found that 15mg of sublingual, 2250-3750mcg sc injection equivalent is generally about maximum effectiverness by my own comparisons. Then at 7.5mg SC injection there is a CNS effect that doesn't show up at less. In other people this CNS threshold has shown up as low as 6mg and as high as 7.5mg. Adults have about 5 liters of blood and that seems to nbe the controling factor. Done 4 x a day this is 30mg a day and in the range of the 50mg Japanese studies. As this was reaqched by titatration it wasn't a guess. 60mg per day, 3x20mg made no noticable difference compared to 3x10mg. 3x60mg per day makes no qualitative difference compared to 3x10mg but does last a little longer. I have compared the urine color across 8000+ injections, more or less, and observed the differnces made by folic acid, folinic acid, glutathione/NAC, veggie food folate, in and out of paradoxical folate deficiency and/or induced folate deficiency. There is no research that has repeated my findings, which I have been able to find.

    Here is the thing about tissue levels, they change slowly. The serum halflife of injected or sublingual mb12 is short. It starts at about 30 minutes, moves up to 4 hours after about 12 hours. About 99% is excreted in 24 hours. Serum halflife returns to liver only excretion rate after about 3 days to 2 week. Return of mb12 deficiency symptoms starts about 3 days after last dose in body. For susceptable people CNS symptoms start returning within 10 hours of last dose. A subcutaneous injection maintains serum peak for about 6-10 hours, an IM injection maintains a higher serum peak for perhaps 30 minutes.
     
  18. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    When one of my physicians prescribed Deplin at 15 mg, I was certainly having low potassium symptoms, which were aggravated by and not discovered until substantial days of mb12 had been taken. Now that I am taking potassium, those symptoms have subsided.

    Maybe I have the benefit of a single C677T to throw me down a little harder, and this may not be your experience.

    Maybe getting some paradoxical folate deficiency during start up has exacerbated what could otherwise have been a smoother experience for me, and that could be what you have seen.
     
  19. lolasana

    lolasana

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    Hi Rosebud,

    You had mentioned that you need to increase your potassium intake during menstruation. How big is this increase, generally? I realize dietary intake of potassium varies widely between people, so it's not really possible to assume I would need a similar amount, but I'm just curious.

    Also, potassium supplements seem to top out at 99mg. Is this always the case? Do you buy the 99mg tablets and just take a bunch of them?

    Thanks!
     
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Like I wrote earlier, potassium bicarbonate has about 500mg per capsule. You can also get potassium gluconate powder.
     

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