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Why is potassium supplementation needed in methylation treatmt?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    What if I'm taking a capsule with food? Is that a bad idea? I've been doing that for the past few weeks and I'm still alive.:rolleyes: I'm joking of course. If it's dangerous I'll stop ASAP.

    NOW Foods has pretty good prices on the ones you mentioned (gluconate and chloride. Purebulk.com sells potassium citrate along with a few other types of potassium. Potassium bicarbonate is sold at nuts.com but they charge a lot for shipping unless your'e planning on buying a lot of stuff so maybe there's better sources for that type.
     
    Crux likes this.
  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus;
    I forgot, yes, it's a great idea to take it with food. It's probably the best way. ( I'm too used to the powder/water method).
    I use to buy from pure bulk, and I still have potassium chloride and pot. citrate from them, but NOW is much less costly. I still have alot of potassium bicarbonate I bought from LD Carlson, a wine and beer making supply company. I don't remember if the price was the best, though.

    If stomach acid is low, the pot. bicarb. can neutralize it too much, so I don't take it anymore, but I remember it did help pain after exercise. ( maybe it lessened lactic acid) I believe it would be better to take potassium bicarb. on an empty stomach.

    The pot. chloride is good with food if stomach acid is low.
    I generally take the gluconate, but many prefer the citrate type.
     
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Crux
    Someone said something about Citrate being alkaline. I'm not sure if that's why people prefer it though. Is there a particular reason why you like gluconate?
     
  4. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Lotus97;
    Yes, when tested with PH paper, ( which is pretty accurate ), potassium citrate is more alkaline,~8. But one thing I keep meaning to look up is , what happens when the compound is denatured in the body? Does the potassium form different bonds,and do the citrates go off and do other business? ( These are some of the questions that roil through my nerdy- wanna- be brains.)
    There was a time when the potassium citrate solution stung my oversensitive gums. So, I stuck with the gluconate. It doesn't bother me anymore.
    All I know is that citrates are needed for the kreb's cycle, and other good metabolic stuff.
    Gluconate.... I forget, ( I'll look this up....again)

    Now I like the potassium gluconate because it's cheap and easy to find, sorry, not a good sciency reason!
     
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    fyi my father had a heart attack last week (at the cardiac unit at the hospital - yay! they recovered him) and I was reading about magnesium because he has a horrible twitch that they simply ignore but we think had to do with the electrolyte problem. AHA has a study which says that serum magnesium has no bearing on the magnesium level in the atria of the heart but that epithelial magnesium DOES correlate (but they don't measure that - VERY frustrating). So I was reading about supplementing magnesium for the heart and read that it needs to be done with potassium as it can also cause low potassium. So..... I got the impression that when you correct many deficiencies you open up biochemical pathways that previously were not functioning and may of those pathways need potassium. So it is probably something to watch for whenever supplementing.

    This is all very odd to me because I have been used to having electrolyte problems my whole life and always assumed they were due to blood sugar issues (which does make you lose LOTS of potassium), but now I wonder if it's just from being low in something and then repleting it, etc.

    Triff

    Be careful though ... if you have a urinary tract infection you cannot excrete potassium properly and it can build up. Do not even think of supplementing it then!
     
    EMilo likes this.
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    triffid113
    Hi triff;
    I'm glad your father has recovered. He has a great advocate in you! I've read some peoples' accounts of needing more potassium when taking higher dose magnesium. ( forget why)

    Your father's twitches could be low potassium related, they have been with me.

    In the hospital, they treat hypokalemia with potassium chloride,IV, and with low magnesium, they use magnesium chloride,IV. Even though potassium and magnesium are very alkaline, the addition of chlorides to the compounds adds too much acid to the mix. This can cause alot of pain, tissue damage, etc.

    It's true that potassium wasting can occur when blood glucose is high from elevated cortisol.
     
  7. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    i've been titrating up potassium while on Freddd's protocol (at 2,700 mg now) and am trying to assemble as much information about potassium as I can at http://howirecovered.com/understanding-potassium - would be interested to hear more people's experience with it.

    I've just started using potassium bicarbonate (replacing sodium bicarbonate for alkalinization)...
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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  9. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    Great post and thanks for that. Do you have a link to any of that research?

    Many labs have a "Potassium RBC" test that is separate from Potassium Serum. That is *supposed to* show you potassium levels inside of the blood cell. Why wouldn't you just use that test instead of this very intricate procedure to extrapolate based on potassium radioactive half-life?

    And as a mega-geek, I have to ask do you know of anyone in the US who can do this whole body potassium calculation?

    One obvious question is why do we assume that potassium supplementation will correct the intracellular deficiency? After all, if the sodium / potassium pump is broken for lack of energy, increasing the amount of potassium outside the cell is not going to supply the ATP energy needed to get potassium back inside the cell? Did Burnet test potassium levels after supplementing? It wouldn't surprise me if you needed to take the potassium with something else to get it back inside the cell?

    How do you feel about potassium bicarbonate? Aside from being readily absorbed form of potassium, you get the alkalinity of the bicarbonate. Any of that which is not neutralized by stomach acid should then help the body fight acidity from accumulating byproducts of aerobic exercise.
     
  10. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    How do we get tested for neurotransmitters? Are these single fasted serum blood tests?
     
  11. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Pone,
    You won't be getting a reply from Richvank (Rich Van Konynenburg), because he is no longer on this plane. I think it was around October 2013 when he died. There are posts on PR about it.
     
  12. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

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    What a terrible loss. He was a very smart guy.

    I searched back through September 2013 for "Richvank" and was not able to find the notice of his death.
     
  13. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  14. Motherofadarling

    Motherofadarling

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    Hi, im new to this forum. I don't have CFS/MS but was recently diagnosed with MTHFR C677T mutation and prescribed l-methylfolate 3200mg daily. I took half in the am and half in the pm and felt terrible almost immediately. I stopped for a few days and found this link and a few others indicating that some of my symptoms (headache, fatigue, anxiety, insomnia) might be related to the potassium deficiency.

    I also have pyroluria, so I've been taking methylb12 and p5p for over a year- so I'm assuming I was already on the low side potassium wise.

    My question is, how much potassium should I take?


     
  15. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    As regards potassium I will let more expert people give their advice. If you haven't taken methyl-folate before starting with 1600mcg could be too much. Usually people start with 200-400mcg and slowly build their dosage over time.

    cheers
     
  16. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @Motherofadarling ,

    Peter may be right, that you'll do better if you gradually increase methylfolate over time. Personally, I started with 1000 mcg (1 mg) at my health care practitioner's suggestion and never had any trouble with it being too much - but the point is that everyone is different.

    If the potassium really is what is messing you up, here's what I do, which is one possibility for you: get coconut water, the kind with about 620 mg of potassium in a single serving ( just for reference, it also has about 15 g carbohydrates). I have one with a meal, and if it tastes good and I feel better, I figure I probably need the potassium. If it tastes sort of like dirt, I've had enough. I have up to 3 servings a day, and for me, two days of three servings gets me back on track.

    I like this approach better than the pills because it allows for my body to give feedback. I do use the pills if I'm in a hurry.

    I guess I feel like no one can tell you how much potassium you need. You need to figure it out by how you feel and when your headache, fatigue, anxiety, and insomnia go away.

    Critterina
     
  17. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    It makes me very sad to quote his post posthumously. Been reading a lot of his stuff lately- what a caring person he was!

    Regarding this quote, I have been taking tiny doses of methylB12 and gulping electrolytes in attempts to calm myself and keep from feeling like my heart is going to beat out of my chest or stop. Recently I have read that many others have intolerance to methylB12. This is even in absence of methylfolate.

    1. My question is, why do some people get such a strong reaction to methyl B12 all by itself? Does adB12 have less side effects? It seemed like it might judging from this quote from Rich (above):

    "With regard to the effect of methylB12 on nerve-related problems, I don't think the mechanism (or mechanisms) are agreed upon. Fundamentally, methylB12 and adenosylB12 are the only known active forms of B12 in humans. MethylB12 is a coenzyme for the methylation cycle, and adenosylB12 is a coenzyme in the mitochondria. So it would seem that either or both of these is involved. Assisting the mitochondria will raise ATP production, which is very importand for powering the membrane ion pumps in neurons. Assisting methylation will help to repair the myelin on the axons, for one thing. Maybe those are involved."

    2.. Just brainstorming here, but could not having enough adB12 to assist "the mitochondria " in "powering the membrane ion pumps in neurons" contribute to the feelings of excitotoxicity when taking methylB12 alone? Could it be that inefficient membrane ion pumps on neurons causes K defiency? Anyone feel less side-effects after supplementing with adB12?

    3. When I take too much supplemental potassium I get panic attacks. Could this be because of lack of ion transport for ATP making me hyperkalemic (unable to get K into cells via ion transport?) Check out this quote from Rich from above:

    "The observation of low intracellular potassium in the presence of normal serum potassium means that there is a problem with the membrane ion pumps that normally pump potassium in (and sodium out) of the cells. These pumps require ATP for their energy supply, and that implies that the mitochondria are not able to supply enough ATP."

    I don't mean to sound flakey but when I take potassium supplements my body screams to stop with panic attacks. Body is usually smarter than me. Just trying to figure out why. However when I get K from food it is never enough. Could it be that ion pumps need energy? Do feel calmer when I take d-ribose but wasn't sure if that was just from low blood-sugar.
     
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Adlyfrost likes this.
  19. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @Adlyfrost ,

    Have you ever tried coconut water for your potassium intake? A 10-oz or so serving usually contains as much as 5 or 6 pills, and you have the body-wisdom of taste to help you determine if you need it or not. For me, sometimes coconut water tastes good to me (like my body has been longing for it) and sometimes like dirt. It also has carbs, so if your blood sugar is low, it might help that, too.

    Not to discount the possibility that @Gondwanaland has an important clue with Mg, too. The elements need to be in balance.

    My take on your questions:
    1. Some people are really deficient and the B12 makes a HUGE difference when it was the limiting step and (at least for a while) no longer is. For me, DHEA was a limiting substance. I could walk 2 miles every other day (and my DHEA was almost zero, my testosterone was undetectable). I started DHEA (25 mg orally) and after 3 days I could walk 4 miles every day, after a week, it was 6 miles plus doing other things the rest of the day. I think that people with B12 deficiency may have similar reactions. I also think they may bump up against another limiting factor after a few days of energy on B12.

    2. I use AdB12, but never had any noticeable effects. I used it daily, I now do it 2-3x/week. For me, I know that creatine has in the past been a limiting factor in ATP production. I had a blood test in 1998 that showed out-of-range low creatinine. Creatinine is the break-down product of creatine. Creatine recycles ADP to ATP. So, my officemate had been supplementing with creatine. I tried it. I had been doing a circuit up one canyon, across a ridge, down another canyon, for a total of 5.1 miles in 100 minutes. As I was on a "healthy people" team, I was writing down my exercise minutes, and this was a very reliable 100 minutes. Two days after I started the creatine, I did it in 88 minutes. The next time 82 minutes. OMG! I couldn't believe the difference. So, ribose, creatine, AdB12 - they can all be limiting factors in mitochondrial production of ATP. I don't know about the excitotoxicity or potassium depletion, as those are rarely a problem with me and never associated with AdB12.

    3. I think it's electrolyte imbalance - like we were talking about above.

    Well, enough from me.
     
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  20. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    @Critterina I drink over a quart of coconut water a day (lately) along with low sodium V8, avocado, bananas and lots of other K rich stuff. But it is not enough. Fred says in his posts this is typical when doses are too low of b12 or methylfolate but I am a wimp and terrified to push through. But this is only recent:

    Nerves, sweating and waking up in the middle of the night, feeling like my heart was going to stop, weakness in legs and being out of breath all of a sudden (all this with no viral symptoms for a change) started last month after a pSylium fiber herbal detox I thought might help me sleep. It did help at first until I started feeling low on electrolytes. But also like a huge burden had been lifted, like I was healing. But I was unusually tired. Legs felt heavy. Could barely walk up stairs. So I stopped.

    So then I took a ton of maca root for energy and hormones. Better at first- appetite increased a lot. Then low on electrolytes and weak again. Then I figured I might have just detoxed incompletely. Not understanding detox could take decades and involve heavy metals and other nasty pollutants (my focus for the last two years has been solely my gut and gut viruses), I thought I'd pop a few methylating supplements for a few months and voila.

    Had no idea what was to come- cookie-crumb amounts made me sweat like I hadn't sweated for years. After being on an essentially liquid diet with my virus, suddenly I could eat like a 200 pound man (I'm about 105 lbs). My need for electrolytes has been INSATIABLE to say the least!

    Whereas a month ago 1/2 banana would take three days to digest and cause me a resurgence in candida and virus, now every morning when I had taken either B12 or methylfolate or JUST b12 in cookie crumbs the day before, I am gulping potassium, downing several bananas, potatoes or whatever I can get my hands on and an hour later I am needing more food and minerals or I feel like my heart will stop.

    I don't know what happened to me- it is both wonderful that the viruses seem to be in a fragile check and CRAZY that I am out of breath, weak nervous, have constant panic attacks, sometimes blurry vision, huge appetite- all symptoms which I haven't had ever or at least not together. Two months ago I couldn't stay awake without green tea all day but now I can't tolerate a pinch of caffeine- even decaf, or leafy greens. It is so weird and frightening.

    I am so happy about the creatinine, ribose adB12! Congratualtions about the exercise!!! That is awesome and encouraging that you have figured out something that is really working!!! :thumbsup: I think I will be switching over to adB12. I hope I will do better on it than the methylB12 but I might have to settle for the hydroxocobalamin even though it may not be as effective.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014

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