Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Why is Equilibriant (Oxymartine) Not Recommended in Patients with Autoimmunity?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Jesse2233, Feb 4, 2017.

  1. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes:
    3,414
    Dr Chia writes here that Equilibriant is not recommended in patients with autoimmune tendencies.

    Do we know why that is?

    And how does one test to see if they have autoimmune tendencies?

    I'm thinking of starting it before I see Dr Chi, but I want to make sure I don't do anything adverse

    @Hip @halcyon @Deltrus @Jonathan Edwards @alex3619

    Thanks!
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,114
    Likes:
    13,959
    Yes, because in those with autoimmune tendencies, oxymatrine can trigger an autoimmune condition such as rheumatoid arthritis.

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
    halcyon likes this.
  3. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,313
    In general, things like a positive ANA, RF, or anti-thyroid antibodies. Or having things like psoriasis, etc.
     
    MEMum likes this.
  4. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes:
    3,414
    Thanks guys, I'll have to check those

    Just found out I have high titers for Coxsackie B4, I know you have the same @Hip. Been having chest pains and weird heart beat, seeing the cardiologist on Monday. Should I ask for IVIG to try and clear it early? Only 2.5 months in
     
  5. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,313
    Hard to say. I know Chia has used it in the past, as well as the Brits, with mixed success.
     
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,213
    Likes:
    31,652
    I am not aware of a shred of evidence for that. I don't think a serious immunologist would use the term 'autoimmune tendency'. Lupus may present following certain drugs but it is unclear whether this is a causal effect in most cases.

    (Also psoriasis is not an autoimmune disease.)
     
  7. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,313
    Guess I misremembered. Wikipedia and National Psoriasis Foundation both call it an autoimmune disease. My bad.
     
    MEMum likes this.
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,114
    Likes:
    13,959
    From Dr Chia's presentation at the 2010 Invest in ME London conference:
    And it this article, it says:
    So it seems that Dr Chia is just being cautious about who he prescribes oxymatrine to, in case it might trigger some more cases of rheumatoid arthritis. I guess those cases of rheumatoid arthritis could have been just coincidence, but Chia is being cautious.



    "Autoimmune tendency" I believe is just being used to mean a strong family history of autoimmune diseases, and/or if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,213
    Likes:
    31,652
    It came to be called that by a sort of Chinese Whispers because it seemed to be 'auto' and involved inflammation. But it has never been shown to involve immunity to self in the sense of specific adaptive immunity - which was the original meaning of autoimmunity and the only one that is worth keeping. The genetic predisposition factors involve MHC Class I and tend to point to a flaw in general T cell activation thresholds. The T cells certainly seem busy but there is no indication they are reacting to self antigens.
     
  10. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,213
    Likes:
    31,652
    It probably is but the genetic factors are different and work differently for each disease so lumping them together as 'autoimmune tendency' is almost certain to lead to garbage arguments.
     
  11. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes:
    3,414
    Thank you @Jonathan Edwards @Hip @halcyon you guys are a wealth of information as always

    So am I to assume then that psoriasis isn't a concern in terms of taking oxymartine?
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page