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Why Does B12 Cause Negative Effects?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by slayadragon, Jan 27, 2012.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Especially for Rich van K or Freddd, but other comments are welcome!

    I've recently been discussing reactions to supplementing B12 with a number of ME/CFS sufferers with mold reactivities. They suggest that they have experienced negative reactions from supplementing B12, especially when in bad environments.

    Here are some of the symptoms a few different people mention:

    Person 1: Anxiety, spinal inflammation, tremor, tachycardia. ("Any form of B12," most recently from hydroxy)

    Person 2: "Wicked sick" --weakness, blurry vision, spinal burning, lymph system inflammation, emotional instability. (Methyl B12 liposomal)

    Person 3: Anxiety, inability to sleep, emotional instability. (Especially from methyl, but also from hydroxy when in moldy house.)

    Person 4: Cyanocobalamin seems to help with cravings and hunger. Hydroxy makes cravings worse and gives flu-like symptoms at high doses, but does give more energy.

    One of these people said that a mold doctor (not Shoemaker) said that "one of his patients had elevated b12 and she had a stroke when she took the nebulized b12 he prescribed for her."

    I'm interested in figuring out the following:

    * I thought that B12 was a water soluble vitamin, and so it's curious to me that it would cause negative effects. What exactly is going on that's making it do this?

    * Why might it be more likely to cause negative effects in a moldy (inflammatory) environment?

    * Are these reactions possibly connected with low methylfolate status? Would these folks be likely to eventually be able to take (and benefit from) more B12 if they were to (carefully!) take Metafolin?

    Thanks very much for any thoughts you can provide.

    Best, Lisa
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lisa,

    I'll do my best to answer but mostly there is not sufficient information to answer most of those specically. This is, in general, what I am trying to answer and collecting information, but it has to be complete enough.

    1 - For instance, in rare cases the answer is going to at least in part depend on the form of cobalamin. Cyanocbl and hydroxcbl both require ATP, already in short supply in CFS and FMS, a methyl group, in short supply and an enzyme to convert to methylb12. They compete for the hard to find methyl groups making the depleted methyl situation even worse and worsening inflammation, whether for that reason or others. Carmen Wheatly in her 3 "Scarlet Pimpernel" papers discusses this worsening of inflammation intially.

    2 - If folic acid and/or folinic acid in fewer persons, is not usable then there is paradoxical folate deficiency (estimate 15-50% of persons), which will cause a worsening of inflammation and increase the already present hypersenstive responses present from the deficiencies. Even if they don't worsen the folate deficiency they have to be expensively converted requiring ATP and other resources to be converted to methylfolate, again increasing the competition for already rare resources

    3 - Anxiety, sleep disorders, emptional instabilty are all existant symptoms of b12/folate deficiencies. When nervous system signal strength and speed is increased in an already irritated system by mb12 these symptoms increase in intensity. Hycbl to the extent it becomes mb12 also can increase these by being sucessfully converted and puts more strain on low ATP and methyl and increases the intensity of these deficiencies at first and then increases methylation thereby increasing intensity.

    4 - Anxiety, sleep disorders, emptional instabilty are all existant symptoms of b12/folate deficiencies. When nervous sytem energy generation is increased by neuronal and muscle ATP generation by adb12 these symptoms increase in intensity. Hycbl to the extent it becomes adb12 also can increase these by being sucessfully methylated and puts more strain on low ATP and methyl and increases the intensity of these deficiencies at first and then increases ATP thereby increasing intensity.

    5 - If b12 functions are started up there are hundreds of potential dependencies and some things don't start right away because of temporary deficiencies. Potassium will plumet in perhaps 80-100% of those who succeed in starting methylation. How low it goes determines the intensity of symptoms.

    As there is insufficient information I can only make my best guesses.

    Person 1: Anxiety, spinal inflammation, tremor, tachycardia. ("Any form of B12," most recently from hydroxy)

    anxiety - b12 deficiency symptpom, unbalance between mb12, adb12, metafolin, increased ATP, increase nervous system intensity, low potassium
    tremor - CNS deficiency symptom of adb12, low potassium
    tachycardia - mb12 deficiency symptom
    spinal inflammation - effective folate startup without effective b12 startup. This is a hazard of effective folate without effective b12, can progress in hours to subacute combined degeneration. This is a hazard of cyabocbl and hycbl instead of mb12


    Person 2: "Wicked sick" --weakness, blurry vision, spinal burning, lymph system inflammation, emotional instability. (Methyl B12 liposomal)

    "Wicked sick" - low potassium or folatge deficiency
    weakness - low potassium generally
    blurry vision - deficiency symptom - low mb12, low adb12 and/or low folate and/or low potassium
    lymph system inflammation - not specific enough, can't relate
    emotional instability - deficiency symptom, low adb12, low folate, lack of balance between adb12-mb12-methylfolate


    Anxiety, inability to sleep, emotional instability. (Especially from methyl, but also from hydroxy when in moldy house.)

    anxiety - b12 deficiency symptpom, unbalance between mb12, adb12, metafolin, increased ATP, increase nervous system intensity, low potassium
    inability to sleep - b12 deficiency symptpom, unbalance between mb12, adb12, metafolin, increased ATP, increased nervous system intensity
    emotional instability - deficiency symptom, low adb12, low folate, lack of balance between adb12-mb12-methylfolate

    Person 4: Cyanocobalamin seems to help with cravings and hunger. Hydroxy makes cravings worse and gives flu-like symptoms at high doses, but does give more energy.


    Cyanocobalamin seems to help with cravings and hunger - cyanocbl makes about 80% of deficiency symptoms worse, makes methylation problems worse, makes nervous system problems worse

    Hydroxy makes cravings worse and gives flu-like symptoms at high doses, but does give more energy. - hycbl works differently on a somewhat different crossection of symptoms compared to cycbl. more energy would indicate some increase in ATP.
    Flu like symptoms - folate deficiency most likely, potassium deficiency secondary

    One of these people said that a mold doctor (not Shoemaker) said that "one of his patients had elevated b12 and she had a stroke when she took the nebulized b12 he prescribed for her."

    If taking CoQ10 blood pressure could jump to over 200/140 in minutes. So-called elevated b12 is irrelevant. If person had fully adequate b12 in body and brain there would have been no effect at all with ANY level of dose of methylb12 or hydroxyb12 or probably adb12 (not enough data),

    I thought that B12 was a water soluble vitamin, and so it's curious to me that it would cause negative effects. What exactly is going on that's making it do this?

    It is water soulable and 99% is gone out kidneys by next day, it starts at 30 min serum halflife down to 4 hr halflife after 12 hours. The negative effects are not at all what you think. If everything else is present then it can have kick-ass startup effects as ATP ramps up in minutes, and methylation starts in minutes and nervous system intensity starts in minutes and 600 or so stalled processes all try to start at once wherever they are stalled. People with anxiety respond with more anxiety. People with unstable emotions get more unstable. Hallucinations stop in hours. Depression can lift in 1 hour. The more deficient the person the more intense the startup. Everything that starts with a bang heals more rapidly. Potassium problems often start during day 3 and they can become severe very quickly. 500mg potassium with a large glass of water stop the symptoms in 30-60 minutes.



    * Are these reactions possibly connected with low methylfolate status? Would these folks be likely to eventually be able to take (and benefit from) more B12 if they were to (carefully!) take Metafolin?

    Often, see individual comments. Metafolin is a must. Eliminating folic and folinic acid immediately is often helpful and they can be trialed later. Glutathione, NAC and whey can cause very severe folate and b12 deficiencies and can completely prevent effectivness while worsening symtpoms in hours.

    I think that the molds put a strain on the entire system causing inflamation and depressing the levels of various things. It could very likely make everythinjg worse just by the added strain.
  3. Jbea2011

    Jbea2011

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    Hi there. I am person #1.

    I think it's important to know that at the beginning of my illness, my b12 serum levels were consistently elevated. At that point I didn't have a diagnosis and this was one of the few abnormalities I had in my bloodwork (the other was elevated IgA and d-dimer, a clotting factor). I embraced these abnormalities because I was sure they held a clue to my diagnosis. Yet I couldn't find a dr to acknowledge that any of this meant anything. Of course, when I look up "elevated cobalamin" I see pretty scary stuff.."serious liver problems, blood disorders, cancers...". Freaked me out, yet no one is concerned. And I notice a direct relationship between the severity of my symptoms and the level of elevation of both b12 and IgA.

    I deduce from this that in my case, the problem is not a "deficiency" of b12, as the serum levels have always been clearly elevated many times without supplementation, and coincide with my symptoms...anxiety, tremor, spinal inflammation, skin irritation, "pricklies" all over my skin, stiff neck, hypersensitivity (hearing, skin sensations, blurry vision. I am puzzled. I cannot handle B12. For some reason my body has to much. And it aggravates my symptoms. The question is, are my cells unable to utilize it? It just recirculates in my bloodstream.

    And if that is the case, what do I do I fix this? I had the genomics panel done. Waiting on results.

    Thanks
    Jenn
  4. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Lisa: What I find problematic about the methylation protocol is that there is no clear test where Rich or Freddd would say that it excludes a methylation problem. Rich recommends a lot of tests but none to exclude a methylation problem. I haven't heard about any specific laboratory parameter where both would say that B12 and Metafolin are not part of the problem.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Waverunner,

    I work from symptoms. When a person has the symptoms they have the prblem..Therer are a lot of people with symptoms that don't indicate a methylation problem and/or these folate/b12 deficiencies, but there are a lot that do. Basically the entire set of ME, FMS, CFS symptoms are active b12 and folate deficiency symtoms

    With b12 and folate problems the tests can tell you that there is a problem, but not that there isn't. People without b12 deficiency and/or folate deficiency symptoms don't respond to them. As much research says the definitive test for b12 (and folate) problems is a trial.
  6. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    My understanding is that Rich would say that if people are okay on this Health Diagnostics test, they don't have a methylation problem. I've yet to see anybody with ME/CFS come up normal on it, or get back to normal on it through any sort of treatment, either. I wonder how Freddd would do on it, at this point.

    *


    Methylation Pathways Panel

    Written by Rich van K (with Lisas results from Fall 2010 noted):

    This panel will indicate whether a person has a partial methylation cycle block and/or glutathione depletion. I recommend that this panel be run before deciding whether to consider treatment for lifting the methylation cycle block.

    I am not associated with the lab that offers this panel.

    The panel requires an order from a physician or a chiropractor. The best way to order the panel is by fax, on a clinician's letterhead.


    Available from:

    Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 4930
    South Amboy, NJ 08879
    USA
    Phone: (732) 721-1234
    Fax: (732) 525-3288

    Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.

    Dr. Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., is willing to help clinicians with interpretation of the panel by phone.


    Interpretation of the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    Methylation Pathways Panel

    by Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.


    Several people have asked for help in interpreting the results of their Health Diagnostics and Research Institute methylation pathway panels. Here are my suggestions for doing so. They are based on my study of the biochemistry involved, on my own experience with interpreting more
    than 120 of these panel results to date, and on discussion of some of the issues with Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., at the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute.

    The panel consists of measurement of two forms of glutathione (reduced and oxidized), adenosine, S-adenosylmethionine (SAM), S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), and seven folic acid derivatives or vitamers.

    According to Dr. Audhya, the reference ranges for each of these metabolites was derived from measurements on at least 120 healthy male and female volunteer medical students from ages 20 to 40, non-smoking, and with no known chronic diseases. The reference ranges
    extend to plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean of these measurements.

    Glutathione: This is a measurement of the concentration of the reduced (active) form of glutathione (abbreviated GSH) in the blood plasma. From what I've seen, most people with chronic fatigue syndrome (PWCs) have values below the reference range. This means that they are suffering from glutathione depletion. As they undergo the simplified treatment approach to lift the methylation cycle block, this value usually rises into the normal range over a period
    of months. I believe that this is very important, because if glutathione is low, vitamin B12 is likely unprotected and reacts with toxins that build up in the absence of sufficient glutathione to take them out. Vitamin B12 is thus "hijacked," and not enough of it is able to convert to methylcobalamin, which is what the methylation cycle needs in order to function normally. Also, many of the abnormalities and symptoms in CFS can be traced to glutathione depletion.

    3.4 LOW (Ref range 3.8-5.5)


    Glutathione (oxidized): This is a measurement of the concentration of the oxidized form of glutathione (abbreviated GSSG) in the blood plasma. In many (but not all) PWCs, it is elevated above the normal range, and this represents oxidative stress.

    .58 HIGH (Ref range 0.16-0.50)


    Adenosine: This is a measure of the concentration of adenosine in the blood plasma. Adenosine is a product of the reaction that converts SAH to homocysteine. In some PWCs it is high, in some it is low, and in some it is in the reference range. I don't yet understand what controls the adenosine level, and I suspect there is more than one factor involved. In most PWCs who started with abnormal values, the adenosine level appears to be moving into the reference range with methylation cycle treatment, but more data are needed.

    16.2 LOW (Ref range 16.8-21.4)


    S-adenosymethionine (RBC) (SAM): This is a measure of the concentration of SAM in the red blood cells. Most PWCs have values below the reference range, and treatment raises the value. S-adenosylmethionine is the main supplier of methyl groups in the body, and many biochemical reactions depend on it for their methyl groups. A low value for SAM represents low methylation capacity, and in CFS, it appears to result from a partial block at the enzyme methionine
    synthase. Many of the abnormalities in CFS can be tied to lack of sufficient methyation capacity.

    226 (Ref range 221-256)
    FWIW, supplementing SAM-e always has made me quite sick.


    S-adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) (SAH): This is a measure of the concentration of SAH in the red blood cells. In CFS, its value ranges from below the reference range, to within the reference range, to above the reference range. Values appear to be converging toward the reference range with treatment. SAH is the product of reactions in which SAM donates methyl groups to other molecules.

    57 HIGH (Ref range 38-49)


    Sum of SAM and SAH: When the sum of SAM and SAH is below 268 micromoles per deciliter, it appears to suggest the presence of upregulating polymorphisms in the cystathione beta synthase (CBS) enzyme, though this may not be true in every case.

    283


    Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 also represents low methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining the methylation capacity.

    3.9 LOW


    5-CH3-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is normally the most abundant form of folate in the blood plasma. It is the form that
    serves as a reactant for the enzyme methionine synthase, and is thus the most important form for the methylation cycle. Many PWCs have a low value, consistent with a partial block in the methylation cycle. The simplified treatment approach includes FolaPro, which is commercially produced 5-CH3-THF, so that when this treatment is used, this value rises in nearly every PWC. If the concentration of 5-CH3-THF is within the reference range, but either SAM or the ratio of SAM to SAH is below the reference values, it suggests that there is a partial methylation cycle block and that it is caused by unavailability of sufficient bioactive B12, rather than
    unavailability of sufficient folate. I have seen this frequently, and I think it demonstrates that the "hijacking" of B12 is the root cause of most cases of partial methylation cycle block. Usually
    glutathione is low in these cases, which is consistent with lack of protection for B12, as well as with toxin buildup.

    11.9 (Ref range 8.4-72.6)


    10-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 10-formyl tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is usually on the low side in PWCs. This form of folate is involved in reactions to form purines, which form part of RNA and DNA as well as ATP.

    1.9 (Ref range 1.5-8.2)


    5-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate (also called folinic acid) in the blood plasma. Most but not all PWCs have a value on the low side. This form is not used directly as a substrate in one-carbon transfer reactions, but it can be converted into other forms of folate. It is one of the supplements in the simplified treatment approach, which helps to build up various other forms of folate.

    2.7 (Ref range 1.2-11.7)


    THF: This is a measure of the concentration of tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. In PWCs it is lower than the mean normal value of 3.7 nanomoles per liter in most but not all PWCs. This is the fundamental chemically reduced form of folate from which several other reduced folate forms are made. The supplement folic acid is converted into THF by two sequential reactions catalyzed by dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR). THF is also a product of the reaction of the methionine synthase enzyme, and it is a reactant in the reaction that converts formiminoglutamate (figlu) into glutamate. If figlu is high in the Genova Diagnostics Metabolic
    Analysis Profile, it indicates that THF is low.

    0.97 (Ref range 0.6-6.8)
    In Fall 2007, my FIGLU on MetaMetrixs IONS test was very high.


    Folic acid: This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in the blood plasma. Low values suggest folic acid deficiency in the current diet. High values are sometimes associated with inability to convert folic acid into other forms of folate, such as because of polymorphisms in the DHFR enzyme. They may also be due to high supplementation of folic acid.

    12.5 (Ref range 8.9-24.6)


    Folinic acid (WB): This is a measure of the concentration of folinic acid in the whole blood. See comments on 5-formyl-THF above. It usually tracks with the plasma 5-formyl-THF concentration.

    16 (Ref range 9-35.5)


    Folic acid (RBC): This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in the red blood cells. The red blood cells import folic acid when they are initially being formed, but during most of their
    approximately four-month life, they do not normally import, export, or use it. They simply serve as reservoirs for it, giving it up when they are broken down. Many PWCs have low values. This can be caused by a low folic acid status in the diet over the previous few months, since the population of RBCs at any time has ages ranging from zero to about four months. However, in CFS it can also be caused by damage to the cell membranes, which allows folic acid to leak out of the cells. Dr. Audhya reports that treatment with omega-3 fatty acids can raise this value over time.

    412 (Ref range 400-1500)
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lisa,

    I wonder how Freddd would do on it, at this point.


    Interesting question. If I had the money, I would have two tests. One with no signs of paradoxical folate deficiency and one at least a few weeks into paradoxical folate deficiency.

    Essentially, that is to say another way, one with no symptoms of anything of the sort amiss and the other with tissue formation failures, mood changes, etc going on, say 20-30 symptoms of CFS and FMS.
  8. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    mb12 in / potassium out

    Hi Freddd,

    From post #2 above, Potassium problems often start during day 3 and they can become severe very quickly. 500mg potassium with a large glass of water stop the symptoms in 30-60 minutes.

    I have been taking hydroxy b12 and methylmate b, with good results for the last 6-8 months. I have sort of a hybrid of the two protocols. I have had noticeable increases in stamina and energy while doing this. I also take Phosphitydal serine, a b complex w/ no folic acid or b12 in it , A, C, E, selenium, magnesium and krill oil. I was also taking potassium based on your recommendations and needed it quite a bit early on. Just this past week I ran out of hydroxy b12 and methylmate , so I went back to taking methyl b12 (jarrow 2 mg) and solgar metafolin. Within in 3 days I developed angular cheilitis at the left corner of my mouth and on the fourth day I hit the proverbial wall with a tremendous increase in symptoms including fatigue, ibs, and malaise. Do you think that this is due to a sudden drop in potassium ? I had stopped taking potassium because I no longer felt I needed it. I have experienced this wall hitting everytime I have tried to take methyl b12 (this makes the 3rd attempt). I also tried to start the adb12 at the same time, but I get noticeable increases in anxiety. I also experienced start up effects from the hydroxy b12, but different effects. I had an asthma attack shortly after starting the hydroxy, but none of the other stuff, but kept other stuff in check I think with the potassium . I'm not sure if I have a folic acid problem or not. Every thing seems to be a delicate balancing act, but there seems to be a missing link in all of this somewhere. Maybe the answer lies in the genes.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I ran out of hydroxy b12 and methylmate , so I went back to taking methyl b12 (jarrow 2 mg) and solgar metafolin

    symptoms including fatigue, ibs, and malaise.

    Sounds like both potassium and methylfolate shortage.

    You stopped the glutathione and hydroxyb12 and now have real startup.

    It can take weeks to overcome the glUtathione residual in the system. 8mg of metafolin and more potassium..


    noticeable increases in anxiety. I also experienced start up effects from the hydroxy b12, but different effects. I had an asthma attack shortly after starting the hydroxy, but none of the other stuff


    The asthma was from the induced folate and probably b12 deficiencies from the glutathione. You are now starting to recover from that and have these other things. Hence both the methylfolate deficiency plus the low potassium.

    I had stopped taking potassium because I no longer felt I needed


    Of courtse, no need with the glutathione stopping methylation and healing. Now it is starting with a vengence.

    Now you need to make sure to gert all the glutathione, glutathione precursors, folic acid, folinic acid and get healing going and KEEP it going. Stop and start of mb12/methylfolate makes everything worse the next time.

    Every thing seems to be a delicate balancing act, but there seems to be a missing link in all of this somewhere. Maybe the answer lies in the genes.


    Delicate balance is a factor at times, but this isn't it. This is predictable based on glutathione and hydroxycbl, going off those and starting mb12 and insufficient methylfolate.

    Hold off on the adb12 for a little while until things smooth out on the mb12. The adb12 will start the ATP much faster compared to the mb12. However, that will get that part over with in a few days of adb12 so take your pick.
  10. ramakentesh

    ramakentesh Senior Member

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    An alternative hypothesis:

    B12 mnay cause negative effects in POTS/CFS patients with low flow POTS where reduced neuronal nitric oxide expression is found, being that b12 is a potent NO scavenger.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ramakentesh,

    As POTS is a common result of b12 deficiency symptom and is typically relieved by the active b12 protocl during the first year, I chalk it up to the many hundreds of damages and functional changes from b12 and folate deficiency.

    As hydroxcbl is said to be a better NO scavenger than mb12 and doesn't do as well at healing these things I would suspect that hydxoxcbl and mb12 would produce different resutls. I used to have it quite severely but it is entirely gone and has been for some years. And some symptoms are intensified as they heal and often change quickly over and over as they become partly healed. If somebody were to stop the healing every time a symptom changed they would never heal.

    Also, Ramakentesh "An alternative hypothesis" to what hypothesis specifically? It helps to quote for instance that for which you are offerring an alternative. Thankyou.
  12. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    The asthma was from the induced folate and probably b12 deficiencies from the glutathione. You are now starting to recover from that and have these other things. Hence both the methylfolate deficiency plus the low potassium

    Except that, at that time , Methyl Mate B didn't contain glutathione. That's a fairly new addition to the formula. And I was taking no glutathione precursors.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Drex,
    A modified version then. GIGO

    The asthma was from the induced folate and probably b12 deficiencies. Have you investigated the possibility of paradoxical folate deficiency? You are now starting to recover from that and have these other things. Hence both the methylfolate deficiency plus the low potassium. This could also explain a whole lot of my own experience in the first couple of years of the mb12 etc except that there was no Metafolin for comparison, so it was all a mystery and is only yielding almost nine years after starting.
  14. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,
    Have you investigated the possibility of paradoxical folate deficiency?

    As yet, undetermined. I don't take any folic acid or folinic acid containing supplements. I don't eat alot of vegetables, but I do like me some bread.
  15. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    drex, I went off everything but animal protein for 24 hours and couldn't believe the difference in how I felt. That level of self-testing is pretty easy.
  16. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Freddd

    At post #2, you say

    "Person 2: "Wicked sick" --weakness, blurry vision, spinal burning, lymph system inflammation, emotional instability. (Methyl B12 liposomal)

    "Wicked sick" - low potassium or folatge deficiency
    weakness - low potassium generally
    blurry vision - deficiency symptom - low mb12, low adb12 and/or low folate and/or low potassium
    lymph system inflammation - not specific enough, can't relate
    emotional instability - deficiency symptom, low adb12, low folate, lack of balance between adb12-mb12-methylfolate"


    Q: What is the correct balance between adb12-mb12-methylfolate?

    Thanks
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    That is a difficult question. Here is what I can tell you. A shortage of any of these three, and some other items, can cause depression, personality changes, irritabilty and so on. More subtle are the differences of balance. For instance, when there is too much adb12 compared to mb12, and this was in a series of injections in both cases of persons who did this, irritablily increases and empathy decreases. It is very difficult to say anything more. And for me to say much on the Methylfolate is very difficult because I am still finding out what a sufficiency of methylfolate is like, barely getting the paradoxical folate under control.

    In the mb12:adb12 ratio everything in the 10:1 to 1:1 sublingual doses appears to be just fine. To a very large extent having enough adb12 may be where that is on the low end. So I did just fine in taking 3mg of adb12 as a ride along with my mb12 injections even though I was getting 30x as much mb12 into my system. The point is finding that "low" end dose is individual. I did ok with 3mg a week timed for CNS penetration with my injection so far can't find any differnce with 60mg once a week. It may be that too much adb12 merely competes with the mb12 making not enough avaialble which could account for the neurological influence on mood and personality. My daughter needed 3mg daily for adequacy. More than that made no difference for a large range and she didn't try any extremes.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    That is very interesting. So the vegetable folates have a tremendous blocking effect for you. Now you have an aiming point for determing how much and how timed Metafolin that would allow you to eat a normal and desireable diet. We just picked out the butternuts we are going to cook up for both a baked squash dish and a squash soup dish as part of dinner for a few days. I have to be careful how much I eat as it containes a fair amount of folate.

    And that level of testing is easy. Now that you mention it, my ex wife did that and also felt tremedously better but we had no idea what it might have meant. I'll have to remind her of that experience from her youth.
  19. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi Maddie

    I am not disagreeing with Freddd, but maybe you felt so good on animal protein only as you may have a gluten and/or carb and/or casein sensitivity. I have IBS and feel so much better when I eliminate all non vegetable carbs - and have been eating like this for years. I have yet to eliminate dairy - but without carbs it is much harder to give up dairy.

    It may very well be the absence of folic acid in the veggies or a combination of both reasons.

    It is now believed that one IBS causing factor is a folate deficiency (somehting to do with folates role in reforming of stomach and intestine cells). However it is the 5 methyl thf form that restores this, not folic acid. It appears the tide is turning on synthetic folic acid in several quarters.
  20. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi Drex13

    I see that you take Phosphitydal serine. I started a thread on this a couple of weeks back as I believe it may be the best way to get my cortisol levels down (high evening cortisol which may be impacting quality of sleep and impact on adrenals ofcourse) but didnt get much in the way of a response.

    May I ask, why you take it and how you find it? Any brand recommendations as I note that the one that Rich recommends is not available at iherb.

    Thanks

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