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Why do some methyl B12 sublinguals contain folic acid and B6? Better absorption?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by CAcfs, Jan 9, 2012.

  1. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    I am ordering some sublingual methyl B12 on iherb.com, and I've noticed that some of the brands include folic acid and B6 in them, along with the methyl B12.

    This made me wonder if those two B vitamins are considered important for the absorption of B12? Or are they simply there for the convienence of getting more than one vitamin in one pill?

    Because I'd rather not muddy the waters by including more than one vitamin in a pill (harder to tell what helps), but by the same token, do I need those other two for best absorption?

    Thanks!
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, CAcfs.

    I think this combination is produced because some people have high homocysteine and want to lower it, and this combination can lower it in two ways: the B12 and folate help to convert it to methionine. The B6 helps it to move through the transsulfuration pathway to make cysteine, glutathione, taurine, sulfate, etc.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi CAcfs,

    I agree with Rich 100%. I will go one step further and say that this is the formula that is most popularly used by prescription vitamins for lowering homocysteine. In the prescription field a newer player is Metanx, with methylb12, p5p, and Metafolin; all active forms.

    For most effectiveness agains CFS/FMS uyou need methylb12, ADENOSYLB12,Metafolin, p5p and a full b12 complex, in addition to a well rounded selection of all masic vitamins and minerals.

    Taking a single item or even 3 items is like hunting an elephant with a bb gun, you will keep having no effect becasue one thing after another will be missing. For the b12s, the best absorbtion is sublingual.
  4. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    Thanks.

    I am taking Metafolin and B Right by Jarrow everyday, along with my Methyl B12. I *was* taking the Jarrow Methyl sublingual B12 that most take, but now I decided to cut out sugar alcohols (in case they are fermenting in my gut; I seem to have some allergies/gut issues), so that only leaves me with two options on Iherb for methyl B12 sublingual....

    http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nut...Flavor-5000-mcg-60-Chewable-Tablets/9996?at=0 (I would just chew and hold under my tongue)

    http://www.iherb.com/Superior-Sourc...id-800-mcg-MicroLingual-60-Tablets/26976?at=0

    That second one also comes in a form with JUST the Methyl B12, nothing esle....and that form is 5,000 mcg. So I am having a hard time deciding between the two brands, and deciding if I should get a sublingual with the extra vitamins or not. As a person with ME, should I go for those extras or not? I thought I had heard to only take B6 at bedtime, since it can make some drowsy? (though it may be in my B Right anyways....)

    Thank you.

    PS--i also have the B12 Dibencozide by Country Life that I take
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi CAcsf,

    I thing that avoiding the BEST mb12s on the market because of the possibility that a few mg of sweet alcohols might do something is slitting you throat to spite your stomach. I take it you never eat fruit of any kind then? I did tests on 10 brands and dozens of batches of mb12 crystal for injection. There is almost no chance that either of them will be anywhere near as effective as the Jarrow or enzymatic therapy. If it doesn't work the answer will be use those brands until you have success, then make substitutions if you like. Also, beteeen the country Life and B-Right if you have a folic acid problem you will block the metafolin from working. I think that you are ignoreing a 20% chance of a problem for a 1 in a million chance of a problem, or something like that. Allow the mb12 to subtitute for a quarter teaspoon of fruit juice.

    The first brand has fruit juice that contains those same sweet alcohols so no go.

    Superior source has folic acid too and lactose. Milk is a frequent problem becasue of lactose. You are possibly sabotaging any chance of success.
  6. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    For some people, sugar ALCOHOLS like sorbitol, mannitol, etc are very problematic. For those people, small amounts of fructose can be okay, or even moderate amounts if it is balanced with enough dextrose, but the sugar alcohols are the disastrous part.

    I understand what you are saying though about the odds of it being a problem, so thank you. I wouldn't put it at 1/1 million though!
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Most of the fruits and juices have sweet alcohols. That is why grapes and rasiens are dangerous to dogs. it isn't the fructose. If you can eat fruits, if you can eat 1/4 tsb of fruitjuice, I would doubt that Jarrow or Enzymatic Therapy has more sweet alcohols than that. That somebody is going to have any noticable reaction to a few mg of sweet alcohol is very likely a 1:1,000,000 type odds is reasonable. It's like somebody going into anaphalactic shock because somebody across the room whispers "peanuts". So have you had these terrible problems with fruits? Are you going to skip fruits for the rest of your life now that you know that they are the major source of sweet alcohol in most peoples lives unless they eat suger free gums with these alcohols? What would you put it at, a few mgs quantity? Multiple gram quantities can cause diarrhea and such but that is thousands of times as much as in these tablets. Also, mb12/folate deficiencies cause massive amounts of hypersensitive reactions and MCS and allergies and asthma etc. Getting rid of these deficiencies gets rid of the hypersensitivities.
  8. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    It is more of a malabsorption problem that leads to substances hanging out in the gut too long. So it would not cause an immediate reaction. This is not unlike a lot of the "leaky gut" theories. You are misunderstanding what I am talking about, and it is besides the point anyways. I was just wondering why some of those extra B vitamins are in sublinguals. Just so you know, you are coming across really pushy with this, in an irrational way. The chances of a random person being delusional and thinking they are helping people is also greater than the chances that a random person has potentially unraveled answers to a misunderstood disease, just FYI.

    Even though it's beside the point, this is what I was alluding to in my previous posts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption

    Scroll down to the diet section, and read the last bullet point regarding sugar alcohols. Also, this quote from that page may be of interest: "The USDA food database reveals that many common fruits contain nearly equal amounts of the fructose and glucose, and they do not present problems for those individuals with fructose malabsorption." Note that dextrose and glucose are basically the same thing, for the purpose of FrucMal (I mentioned dextrose earlier). Sugar alcohols can be very problematic for individuals with these issues, esp if you consume them everyday.

    I am not trying to "one up" you, I just want this thread to die. I didn't think I'd come on here to read the replies and be pushed by someone who doesn't understand the condition I was alluding to, or who doesn't care to at least be polite when straying off topic and digging into someone's reasoning, regarding something they don't understand. Aka, pushy. I don't care if you inquire, but don't try to "tell me how it is" when you don't even know what I'm talking about, and I wasn't asking anyways. Geesh.
    Valentijn likes this.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I was just wondering why some of those extra B vitamins are in sublinguals

    The only good reason I can give for that is marketing.

    Absorbed and circulating unmetabolized FA is potentially toxic (Lucock & Yates, 2005; Smith et al, 2008; Sweeney et al,
    2009). Lucock studied three patients ingesting high doses of FA (5 mg/d) to lower serum homocysteine. Under these
    circumstances, serum folate levels may exceed 100-200 ng/ml and FA is frequently 50% of total serum folate.


    Modulation of One-carbon Metabolism by B Vitamins: Implications for Transformation and Progression of Prostate Cancer
    Glenn Tisman, M.D. and Melanie Tisman, BS


    This is something a lot of us here are running into. As with most "toxic" substances, dose makes the poison. There is a lot of information in this failrly long paper which I'll extract some guotes from. As my experience demonstrated, 400mcg of folic acid wasn't nearly the problem as 400mcg of folinic acid or 1200mcg of folic acid.

    1 mg or two is not the same as a gram or 20. By all means stay away from those things in quantities that cause problems. Putting folic acid in multiple substances will get many more people in trouble than what they can't avoid in food or perhaps a single item.

    The problem with knowing what is going on in out digestive system with these deificiencies is very complicated.

    Consider the folate alone. If folate gets functionally deficient enough, cells of the epithelium, which includes our entire digestive system, stop reporducing adequately to mainain it and it starts getting lesions, holes in the surface protective layer of tissue and functionality starts failing. It was kind of shocking to find that IBS could come on in 5 days. There are hundreds of ways to describe the multitude of failures that happens in ourr digestive system alone. Add in to the digestive system failure hypersensitivity to all sorts of things, immune malfuntion, hormone and neurotransmitter malfuntion, neurological malfunctions and nundreds of other thinsg as the b12 deficiency faiulures increase, hundreds of descriptions of the failures are all valid describtions but the causes behind the failures differ just by what depth that one looks at. Of the hundreds of descriptions inspiring hundreds of hypothetical causes, virtually none of then pan out for actually repairing the problem. I spent 2 decades chasing after an actual diagnosis that would lead to an effective therapy. So have a lot of folks here. SomethingThomas Edison said realy clicks home here; 99% perspiration. That's what sorting through the pile of descriptions, hypotheses, beliefs, fears and all that to find the most fundamental level of failure from which hundreds of failures spring from, requires; lots of perspiration. There are hundreds of things that don't work or at best relive a symptom or two, and that can provide a little more comfort but doesn't sove the fundaental problem. So if these tissue breakdowns do result from one or two primary casues, breakdown of methylation stopping tissue repair in rapidly dividing tissues is probably number one on the list becasue it can cause all the many symptoms of malfuntion and hypersensitivity. I went through a multitude of practitioners all trying their therapies and theories and I just kept getting worse. Sure the balance might have cahnaged a little in one direction or another. Whether it was due to what the various practitioners did or not is debatable as everything was always shifting around based on nothing I or they could see. While there is a small amount of disagreement about how best to deal with methylation breakdown, That is about as basic as we can get with hundreds of differently described systems and breakdown all derive from. We can't change our genetics so figruing out the workarounds on that so as to be able to heal the whole collection of damages is a hopefully doable goal. Digging into reasoning is what allows us to get to paydirt. Not digging into reassoning is the medical and research failures that got all of us here.

    I don't know about you but I'm kind of pissed off at the medical and research establishment I made my living from for decades for creating these deficiency diseases by mistakes and sloppy thinking and untold sufferring by millions of us. It trashed my life. For 20 years the only provider I got some relief from was my chiropractor. His theories were wrong about a lot of things but he sure could put my spine back in position that my very tight muscles kept twisting out of place and eventually put the vertabras damaged in the car wreck back in place to my great relief. I'm sorry if some of it spilled over to you. When I questioned the reasoning of all those practitioners of various sorts who came to conclusions that in retrospect were 100% wrong I was kicked out of practices. I always question reasoning. It gets better answers and avoids a lot of expensive potentially damaging wild goose chases. I don't want these things to damage my grandchildren and great grandchildren taking the next 60 years figuring these things out. It irks me to no end that I figured it out in 1979, before I was badly damaged by it, and couldn't get anybody to listen and of course the items needed to test the hypothesis, methylfolate, mb12 and adb12 were not available in any theraputic quantities or outside a very small research community at huge prices if at all. We are all playing "You bet your life" for real in this with the highest stakes, our lives and health. I take that very seriously. I want us to all be winners instead of the medical industry's writeoffs. That's all I'm doing when you get right down to it. Be well.

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