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Why do intolerances come and go ?

Discussion in 'Lifestyle Management' started by xchocoholic, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I've noticed this several times over the last few years. Everytime I buy a pineapple and start eating it, I get
    sores on my tongue. But, if I continue to eat it over the next few days, I stop getting these. This doesn't work with eating too many walnuts tho. Once I've eaten too many walnuts, the sores won't stop until I quit eating them. And these are the exact same type of sores.

    I stopped taking virastop and candidase last year because they made my throat / thyroid hurt and it felt like my throat was closing up. I'm using virastop again without any problems.

    What's confusing me is that I get the same reactions to gluten, dairy, soy, hfcs, bacon and tomatoes everytime. I've been experimenting, not always willingly, with this for 7 years now. So I know that those are out. I get antibodies to gluten but not dairy or soy. I'm just allergic to those but interestingly I don't test allergic to either. Bacon and tomatoes cause my fm pain to return.

    Ok, so why do I have reliable negative reactions to somethings but not others. I can even eat some high
    oxalate foods without reacting. Kow.

    Does it all boil down to which bacteria we have ? I saw an article linking bacteria to gluten digestion recently.
    I'll get that link.

    It's been established that o. forminges is absent in those who produce kidney stones. But we're seeing
    that Vsl #3 is breaking down oxalates too.

    Based on what I've
    been reading getting back our
    healthy bacteria is looking more difficult than taking probiotics tho. Even the feacal transplants aren't always working.

    Maybe I'm ok with virastop now because I started taking s boulardi. It turns out that we need certain
    yeasts to help balance our gut flora. S boulardi comes from the skin of a a fruit (lychee, I think). So what other favorable yeasts can we get from eating raw organic foods ? Not that these are totally safe either. I just
    found out that farmers can use "natural" pest killers like spinosab on organic foods. Yikes .. Spinosab
    is the main ingredient in Cormfortis the flea killer.

    Or is it enzymes ? This may explain why I can eat pineapple. It contains bromelain. I'll have to look
    but I suspect it helps us digest pineapple.

    I've never found an enzyme that would allow me to eat gluten but I get antibodies to it.
    Although taking dpp-iv when I eat out seems to help. There are precautions about using these supplements
    tho since we don't know exactly what is being produced when these substances are broken down.

    Sorry this is do long. It didn't start out that way. Just wondering what you all think .. Thanks. X
     
    merylg likes this.
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, xchoc.

    Intolerances can occur by a variety of mechanisms. There are the common allergies (also called Type 1 sensitivities, involving IgE antibodies and histamine). These tend to be permanent, unless something like NAET works for you.

    Then there are the IgG food sensitivities. These are provoked by having a leaky gut, so that undigested protein fragments leak from the gut into the bloodstream, and the immune system reacts to them. These are not permanent.
    If you stop eating the particular protein that is causing one of them, it will fade away. This is the basis for having a rotating diet. But ultimately, healing the gut is the way to eliminate these.

    Then there is gliadin intolerance, or celiac disease. True celiac disease is an autoimmune disease.

    Then there is the intolerance to casein and gluten because of a deficiency of the DPP IV enzyme.

    Some people are intolerant to things in the nightshade family.

    There may be some more.

    I don't know where the pineapple fits in for you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  3. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks rich,

    My brain is fried but I understand part of this now. I didn't realize leaky gut intolerances were
    different from other types of intolerances and could be resolved. That would explain why I could barely
    even eat bland food at first in 2005 when I "think" I became a celiac. I had the ultimate leaky gut.
    And why I was able to
    include most meats, fruits and veggies in my diet after about a year on the gfcf, etc free diet too.

    I "think" the fact that I'm still getting new intolerances means I still have or get leaky gut regularly. I'm a celiac so
    gluten will cause this for me each time
    I'm exposed. And there's too many possible sources of gluten contamination for me to keep up with.

    I hope this makes sense so far. I need to look at what else you said. This parasite treatment is wearing me out. Thanks again.. x
     
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Intolerances are different from allergies. Allergies rarely go away though they can reduce - they are immune driven by mast cells and sometimes B cells.

    Intolerances, as I understand them, are biochemical. I use amine and salicylate intolerances as my model. The body can adapt to them. Small controlled amounts of an intolerant substance will in most people result in improved tolerance over time. However, large doses are a problem. The other issue is that a small dose for someone might be a huge dose for someone else - our tolerance varies. In addition if the levels of the chemicals needed to tolerate a particular substance go down for any reason, you will develop sudden intolerance. Similarly if those chemicals are restored the intolerance will vanish.

    In the case of salicylates low glutathione is the primary issue. Not only is it needed for detox, but glutathione is the primary regulator of a group of enzymes called the desaturases. The best indication of high desaturase capacity is high levels of reduced glutathione - but low levels of glutathione predict poor desaturase activity. Two of these desaturases. d5d and d6d are responsible for early stage conversion of essential fats to longer fats needed to make essential hormones called eicosanoids.

    Amine tolerance is a little different. It involves direct activation of the nervous system.

    So chemical and enzyme issues lead to hormonal imbalances and neurological imbalances, which drive symptoms. Both can occur in only seconds as well. In the case of neurological triggers this is kind of obvious, but in the case of salicylates you have to look at the half lives of eicosanoids. Some last only seconds. So once the enzymes are targeted then you run out of some hormones in only seconds. These are local hormones though, so the effect will be felt in the parts of the body relying on that specific hormone type - and a wide range of eicosanoids will be affected.

    For many foods the body can adapt. If insufficient capacity exists via enzymes or whatever, the body can make more - but only if you continue to eat the food to continue to trigger the response. Total avoidance of food can restore balance temporarily, but the enzymes necessary to cope might be down regulated and if you come into contact with the intolerant substance you might get a severe reaction.

    In the case of food intolerances in MCS for example, some find that cooking a food different ways produces different results. Cooking alters the chemicals in the food. Cook it a different way and tolerance may be different.

    One final point. Chemical intolerances are dose dependent. If a low dose is within capacity to cope there will be no symptoms unless coping with them causes depletion of essential chemicals. At that point symptoms will appear. At some dose it can immediatley overwhelm the enzyme systems in vulnerable people. The more you ingest over this threshold, the worse the reaction.

    Bye, Alex

    PS I missed out something important, doh. Salicylates attack the desaturases.
     
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  5. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks alex.

    I actually understand this. I had no idea how complicated it was tho and that hormones would
    be involved. It pulls together the tests my integrative doctor has run for me tho. Based on what you've
    said here, it seems that my leaky gut and celiac disease (auto antibodies) have caused most, if not all, of my me/cfs symptoms.

    I'll be more careful about rotating my foods and supplements too.

    I'm not sure how parasites are involved here but I'm having a significant reaction to my treatment. I already saw cod worms in my stool.


    Tc .. X
     
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi xchocoholic, salicylates affect eicosanoid (local) hormones, amines affect nerve function, other chemicals will have other affects, nobody even knows what they all are. We are still developing the science. Bye, Alex
     
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Thanks alex. Is DAN or functional medicine reaearching this ? Do you know if there's an up to date source of info on this somewhere ?

    Fwiw, I remember reading that glutamates affect nerves too. Dogtorj has info on this. I know
    there's ongoing research on oxalates too.

    So far, I seem to be ok with certain foods within these
    categories and not whole categories. At least that's how it seems from what reactions I can feel or see.


    Tc .. X
     
  8. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    ive been reading quite a bit on DPP IV enzyme deficiency of late.. Interestingly these people have issues with gluten, casein (dairy) and can also commonly have issues with soy. Maybe this is part of xchocoholics issue.. DPP IV enzyme deficiency which can actualy be caused by many different things.. some of those which may be factors in ME/CFS.
    ......................
    As far as reactions to tomatos and pineapple goes.. these 2 .. actually 3 as Walnuts are in that list too!, are in the list of 11 different foods which are high in serotonin. Interesting that you said you get reactions to 3 different things on that serotinin food list.

    Tomatoes and pineapple (along with also alcohol) are also listed in the 10 Histamine releasing foods at http://www.sacfs.asn.au/publications/talking_point/2001/2_jun/ate_print.htm So also consider that you may have a histamine intollerance..
     
    xchocoholic likes this.
  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I think the research on all this is all over the place. I have yet to see a sign that its coordinated properly anywhere, though I could easily miss it. The early salicylate research goes back to WW2 I think I dimly recall, though the primary target of salicylates was identified in research in Australia in 1984. Amines I am less familiar with, I know enough to not sound completely silly but not much that much more. I used to though, but I have forgotten nearly all of it.

    There are research centres however. We have one in Sydney that produced a book called Friendly Foods, which lists amines and salicylate content of common foods and is full of recipes.

    Marty Pall had a bit to say on amines though in his book Explaining Unexplained Illnesses. I have often wondered if someone should write a book called What the Biochemists Know.

    Oxolates I have not studied in any depth. I keep meaning to but twenty other projects get in the way.

    I might be able to say more in time. At least one person I communicate with occasionally is doing chemical sensitivity research. I haven't heard from this researcher in many months however, at least not in relation to chemical sensitivities.

    What I would be particularly interested in hearing about if anyone has a story to tell, is if anyone can handle problem foods if cooked a special way.

    Bye, Alex
     
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  10. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Sorry I missed this.

    Hi tan,

    Great article. I saved it so I can read it again it later. I was surprised at how few pwcs he said had
    this tho since most of the cfs researchers I've checked out recognize this.

    I've read that about dpp-iv too and was taking it everyday but I ran out and forgot about it. The cfs curse ! I've
    used these when eating out tho and although I can't say for sure they worked they appear to
    have eliminated my gluten reaction. It's possible but not feasible to measure gluten cross contamination.
    I've met other gluten sensitive people who also said it worked for them but that's immeasurable too.

    hi Alex

    It's known that goitrogens are reduced if the foods high in these are cooked. And high oxalate foods can
    be boiled to reduce their oxalate count. Not sure about others but I've found that certain food combinations
    allow me to tolerate some foods better. Mainly from a hypoglycemia perspective tho. For ex. I can eat
    fruit if I follow it with nuts, preferably brazil or macadamia.

    I stopped by to note that after writing this I experimented with coffee and adenosylcobalamin. Coffee is still out
    but I didn't feel the jolt I used too. It just felt like my adrenals were spinning for 24 hours.

    Adb12 is helping me with my energy / muscle weakness again and I don't have insomia from it like I did. Kow.
    I have the feeling that's going to change after I've had a few.

    It's fascinating to me that these things change over time. Shiney objects get my attention to tho. Lol ..

    Tc .. X
     
  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    With IgE being the least numerous yet most powerful of antibodies, the ones that can kill via anaphylaxis.

    Alex, if you haven't yet seen them, you might enjoy the series of immunology lectures on youtube from an MD prof at Einstein Medical College, by the name of Harris Goldstein.
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Harris Goldstein

    You see how I worked in the Einstein connection :)
     
  12. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    I used to periodically have raw turnip greens. But since my really high histamine symptoms began, I have an aversion to them. I assume its the oxylates.

    Btw, this has probably been mentioned repeatedly, but I'll say anyway that antibodies to foods might largely be meaningless in anybody with periodic leaky gut - since leaky gut makes one effectively allergic to almost any food eaten, but only temporarily. When the gut tightens up again, the antibodies remain although the person won't react to that food anymore.
     
  13. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Thanks Sherlock. :) I know a few people who are looking for something like this. Bye, Alex
     
  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Sherlock. I know some of this goes on, but I wonder how much this is correct. If the food makes it intact to the general blood circulation, what you are saying is definitely right, except that the antibodies slowly disappear (though there can be memory B cells remaining). I am not up to date on gut immunology. A lot of that has happened in the ten years since I last studied immunology (not to mention my ten years of forgetting with an ME brain). However the portal circulation from the gut is regulated differently from the general circulation in terms of immunology. This feeds directly into the liver which is essentially a massive blood filter - it cleans it up. Foods seen by the portal and gut immune system can induce allergy tolerance too - at least if dosed in small amounts. Maybe if food products can cross the gut barrier more easily the dose is universally too high?

    So unless you keep eating that food with a continuous or regular leaky gut barrier, you will not see allergic symptoms. It will however stimulate the resident macrophages in the gut and other immune cells - and that might cause inflammation. So it will give a big oomph to the innate immune response. I am not sure what happens with other immune responses, as I said its been a long time since I looked at gut immunology and its advanced quite a bit since. Gamma delta T cells might be involved, or the gut equivalent if they are different there.

    While I have not made a study of the oxylate reaction, its known that many plants contain poisons to disuade animals from eating them. Cultivation might enhance this for parts of the plant that are not traditionally eaten.

    Bye, Alex
     
  15. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Interesting points, Alex. Offhand though, I wonder what molecules might escape the route to the liver by traveling instead through the lymphatic drainage that also carries away chylomicrons. IIRC, lymphatic vessels are already more permeable than vasculature anyway. I'd suppose that could possibly take the intact undigested proteins through Virchow's node where they'd set off alarms as invaders.
     
    alex3619 likes this.
  16. November Girl

    November Girl Senior Member

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    Sometimes the foods we seem to react to aren't the actual problem. Years ago I had a blood test that checked for food allergies & food sensitivities. Based on that, I stopped eating wheat, and found that I could digest meat without discomfort for the first time in years. While the wheat felt very soothing on my stomach, it was actually triggering something.

    After several months the wheat didn't seem to bother me, so I started eating it again. That was a mistake. I'm now pretty much gluten free and my GI tract is more comfortable.
     
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  17. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Good point november girl.


    Fwiw, I've been watching my reactions for 7 years now so I have a good idea which ones are permanent. I think with my cfs brain .. Lol ..

    Gluten is out permanently. Not only does it cause celiac disease, dq2, but I have high gluten antibodies
    on my stool tests from just eating a small amount of "gf" foods right before my tests.

    I was intentionally experimenting with these foods before each stool test and my antibodies always came back high.
    It finally clicked with me when I told my gp what I was doing that I shouldn't be doing that. Doh ! I
    just wanted to know if I could eat what my celiac buds were eating. I didn't experiment the last time and it came back low
    for the first time ever.

    I've also been off and on the foods that I know I have trouble with. I tried bacon and tomatoes off and on for 5 years
    before giving up. I tried organic, etc. These both cause fibro pain. I may try them again in a few years. Lol

    I wonder if it has anything to do with the amount of gut damage
    when intolerances were formed. The ones I can add back in
    like virastop, candidase, metagenics probiotics, etc I only added those into my diet post gf diet meaning I had less
    gut damage. And my immune system wasn't constantly in a state of attack. Maybe dr fasano knows
    the answer to this.

    Tc ... X
     
  18. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    So the body secretes IgA into the gut lumen to bind with gluten and prevent the gluten from being absorbed... wow. The complexity of the immune system is almost limitless.
     
  19. November Girl

    November Girl Senior Member

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    xchocoholic - regarding the tomatoes, many people find that any foods from the nightshade family give them joint pain - tomatoes, peppers, potatoes & maybe others
     
  20. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi november girl,

    I'm not sure what to make of the food categories we're told to avoid. I eat peppers all the time but
    I don't have pain from them. Or maybe I'd have to eat a lot more peppers at one time to get pain.
    I haven't had the severe fm pain I had for 17 years straight in 5 years now. Kow ..

    I'm seeing foods from different categories causing a variety of symptoms. Only my reactions to gluten, dairy, soy,
    caffeine, (? I feel like I'm forgetting something) are consistent.

    I'm looking at mast cells / specific allergic reactions for swelling and pelvic pain now. And possibly as a cause for my oi. I started experimenting with taking allergy meds 24/7.

    Fwiw, I keep running into questionable dietary recommendations. There's an obvious trend towards self promotion
    in the health field
    but I'm not sure how far that goes. I'm sticking with bio available foods.

    Tc . X
     

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