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Why do certain supplements/medication stop working?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by guest, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. guest

    guest Guest

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    Hi all,

    has anyone here experienced this after taking some new supplement or medication? The first time I took calcium ascorbate, B6, B12, Antihistamines, DAO, enzymes, cortef...they all seemed to work great, at least I was feeling a lot better but within 2-3 days they all stopped working completely. I take a new supplement and sometimes it works really good but stops pretty fast. If I continue taking it I get all kind of weird sideeffects but the positive first experience is gone completely. If I wait for several weeks I can do it all over again, positive effect on the first day, no effect on 2nd, bad effect on 3rd.

    I read on a forum for histamine intolerance. Those people make the same experience. They take DAO or antihistamines and have success on the first 1-2 days but then it stops.

    Why is this so? Does the body adapt? Any ideas?
  2. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    I've done this to myself so much!

    I think that our body biochemistry is unbalanced by pathogens and that these nutrients get taken off and used for purposes other than intended. So we hae a situation where we are deficientin many nutrients, and when we take them there is an improvement for a brief period because our body manages to yuse a little, then that wears off because the pathogens are sterngthened and become more active, so use more of them.

    Emootje has just posted a link to some articles on Hydrogen sulphide, which makes its own use of methionine, zinc, and many other nutrients that are interrelated with these. Once methionine is not being used properly, you get backlogs and blockages in the ongoing conveyor belt that makes up the methylation cycle., H2S also interferes with the Krebs cycle.

    H2S according to these articles, is made in response to many types of viral infection which can become chronic (coxsackie virus for example), not only by certain gut bacteria.

    This is one example. There are probably other potential explanation for what really goes onin our bodyies. All I know is, I have gone supplement mad and taken lots of things that I was tested deficient in, and it has gradually become clear to me that I was actually nourishing the enemy within, rather than my own body.

    Well, that's my take on it.
  3. guest

    guest Guest

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    Thanks for your answer, Athene, that would be an explanation. I'm really annoyed that science still hasn't looked at this properly.
  4. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Good point, Diesel. I think it is a very important factor in a huge number of illnesses. I think it gets ignored partly because it is so complex and there is little opportunity for glory, i.e. major breakthrough discoveries.
  5. guest

    guest Guest

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    Any new input on why drugs/supplements stop working?
  6. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    This is a good theory.

    So, would the answer be to stop all supplements and see if you feel better?
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Diesel.

    My guess is that when a person is ill with a condition such as ME/CFS, the initial problem may start with one block in the overall metabolism. However, over time, more mismatches and deficiencies develop, because normally the various pathways are so interrelated, and one supplies what is needed for another. The body's overall metabolism is marvelously designed, with an incredible economy, by using the same substances for different purposes. However, one down side of this is that when the metabolism becomes dysfunctional for some reason, the resulting effects can be quite complex and difficult to sort out. Just check this out: http://expasy.ch/cgi-bin/show_thumbnails.pl

    When supplements are tried on a hit-or-miss basis, without knowledge of where the fundamental problem lies, the various supplements may correct these individual mismatches or deficiencies and give some temporarily better function, but then the overall metabolism runs up against another barrier, because the basic problem has not been solved.

    In my view, the basic problem lies at the partial block in methionine synthase. When it is corrected, the other mismatches and deficiencies will start to be corrected, also. However, some additional cofactors and feed materials may be necessary in this process, because so many things have become disarranged subsequent to the formation of the initial block.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  8. guest

    guest Guest

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    Hi Rich,

    thank you for your answer. The Biochemical Pathways Map is just *wow*. I wonder if there is one person in the world who can recite it on his own. Is there any test you would recommend in order to check for current methionine status?
  9. pken

    pken

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    I wonder how much of short lived successes can be attributed to the placebo effect. I'm sure there have been many times where I have been so excited about something working, so excited that it's just arrived in the post, so excited that I might be about to get my life back, that I'm running on adrenalin with a sort of serotonin high - and so I've perceived that as X-supplement/drug/therapy working. Then comes the crash. However there are some supplements that have worked when I haven't been expecting them to do anything much and their success has continued for as long as I've taken them (alpha lipoic acid in the K-RALA form, vitamin D, copper). I'm also aware that I've probably done some temporary damage with some ill-advised trials because in the early days I didn't have as full an understanding as I do now (not that I'm an expert by any means of course). Taking large doses of vitamin C for anything more than a short time (which I have done myself) seems on reflection to be a really, really bad idea. Zinc too. In my experience taking megadoses of some of the B vitamins may have been "feeding the devil" even though in theory it should have given me more energy. I think unless we absolutely know what we are addressing in terms of pathology - and most of the time we just don't - it can be a very risky "game".
  10. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    From what my doc has told me, our hypothalamus which control alot of bodily functions is dysfunctional, certain things can help us feel better but for some reason the hypothalamus likes to go back to the way it was, the little bugger. Thats why i think its good to retry certain things again down the track, as they may work or they may not, also i find alternating things all the time eg if something only works for 4 days, use it for 2 days and take a break and then use it again. I have used NADH like this and also use my sleep meds like this also. I think cfsers just dont fit into the normal mold, always expect a strange or opposite reaction.

    cheers!!!
  11. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Great chart Rich ....and just to think that in 100 years time, people will look at this chart against a similar chart of the future and say, 'wow that bit is so wrong ' chortle chortle ....and then notice all the extra complexities that by then will be known! We won't be there of course - good thing too or we could be very embarrassed!!

    Rich I have some problem understanding these 'partial blocks' which you so often talk about, with the implication, that they are causative to our M.E./CFS/FMS problems or as being stand alone causes. Am I misreading you? Do you mean these 'blocks' are causative to our health issues or are you saying that they are an effect of something else which has 'upset the apple cart'?

    How do the 'partial blocks' start if they are not congenital? Surely if they are not congenital they need some triggering factor to cause their onset with their subsequent disarray leading to pathophysiology. A fundamental interfering factor must happen to cause the cascade of change. Why couldn't this precipitating cause or interfering factor be a Retrovirus for instance? (I'm choosing an RV over and above toxic exposure, Lyme, Enteroviruses etc but it could be any of these external interferences).

    I, for instance have 21-Alpha Hydroxylase Deficiency. This is caused by genetic mutations (autosomal recessive) which produce an enzyme block in the steroidogenic pathway. Symptoms in most cases, except for very mild cases, are apparent early in life.

    Now for me the enzymatic block is not the cause of my condition, it is the effect of two faulty mutations. If the body is such a well oiled machine then everything that goes wrong must has a cause. I fail to see then, that the 'partial methylation block(s)' of which you speak arises spontaneously and do(es) not have a cause external to itself!

    You may ask, "does cause matter" if the symptoms can be significantly improved?

    In the case of my 21-OHD, the answer is 'no'. The cause cannot be changed at this point in time ie. the genetic mutations cannot be altered. But if M.E./CFS is caused by something that can be treated, and that's why I chose an RV, (as many of the other theorised causes have been tackled one way or another with little success), then getting to the root cause where fundamental change can take place should be the desired goal!

    Perhaps I view things way too simplistically
  12. SaveMe

    SaveMe *****

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    nope your right on ARV is the way to go tell everyone so they can have the same relief as you have had
  13. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Often, you can't "tell" if a supplement is working. Like when you take supplements for the immune system, antioxidents etc. They are working for you and you do not notice. They are quietly working to protect from cancer and illnesses.

    Most are really like that. Same with food. You eat foods that are healthful but you can't notice a big thing happening. You eat salmon, nuts, berries etc. You are getting nutrients you badly need and they are quickly used.
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, heapsreal.

    I agree that the hypothalamus is dysfunctional. In my hypothesis, it's due to glutathione depletion there. On the other hand, Dr. de Meirleir believes it's due to substances produced by dysbiotic bacteria in the gut. I can't recall now whether he attributes it to the hydrogen sulfide or the D-lactic acid, but it's one of these. It may be that when the gut dysbiosis is corrected in his patients, glutathione comes up and the other two go down. I don't think he measures glutathione.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Francelle.

    I think you are right on.

    You may not have seen a writeup of my complete hypothesis. The original 2007 ppper can be found here: http://www.aboutmecfs.org/Rsrch/GSHMethylation.aspx

    An explanation that I wrote in response for something more readable can be found here: http://www.aboutmecfs.org/Rsrch/GSHSimpleExplanation.aspx

    These are still pretty up-to-date, though I have modified the hypothesis a little as I learn more from published research.

    In reponse to your specific question, yes, my hypothesis proposes that the root cause of onset of ME/CFS is a combination of a genetic predisposition and some combination of a variety of stressors, which differ from one case to another, but include physical, chemical, biological, and/or psychological/emotional stressors. The retroviruses would fit under biological stressors in this model.

    The genetic predisposition has not yet been completely defined, but there is evidence that suggests that there is a genetic predisposition from family and twin studies and from the few polymorphism frequency studies that have been published for ME/CFS.

    I have reviewed the histories of a fairly large number of PWCs, and have also read the published "risk factor" studies, and I think this statement fits all the cases of which I'm aware. There is some complexity in the etiology, because every history is different. However, they have in common that stressors are involved, and the body's nonspecific stress response system ties into the biochemistry by lowering glutathione, and in a person who is genetically predisposed, I'm suggesting that that brings on a sequence of cause and effect that produces the vicious circle that keeps ME/CFS chronic.

    The difficulty in treating ME/CFS is that one cannot recover simply by removing the stressors that contributed to the onset, though it is important to do that, because a vicious circle mechanism is set in motion, involving the methylation cycle, glutathione, and folate, and this vicious circle must be broken. But yes, there definitely is a cause and effect tree in the pathogenesis of ME/CFS.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

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    Rich that is not my experience. My experience is that when I correct the methylation block I get a horrific increase in inflammation without other deficiencies becoming corrected. I do not believe that methylation-block is the underlying cause of ME/CFS, however I do believe that it is a key part of the symptomatology.

    I believe that the best model right now for our disease is a chronic untreated retroviral infection, namely XMRV.

    Methylation treatment can fit into that model (as Judy Mikovits pointed out in her Gordon Medical talk), however it is not a cure.
  17. guest

    guest Guest

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    I agree. Treating the MC can improve the health situation for PWCs but unfortunately it certainly doesn't have to. I had the same problems with inflammation as you describe, even on low doses and over a long period of time. I'm hoping that certain drugs against unwanted inflammation will be made available in the near future because inflammation seems to be a key component of CFS. However, the retro-viral theory seems to be the most plausible one because it includes all other explanations for the CFS symptoms.
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I suppose theres many things that can put the hypothalamus in a dysfunctional state, what comes to my mind is inflammatory cytokines from infection, which disturbs sleep which can put everything out of 'whack' especially our natural killer cells from the sleep disturbances and the chronic infections themselves putting stress directly on the immune system and it can keep spiralling around in circles. I think correcting our antioxidant system through raising glutathione levels by methylation can help reduce the amount of hits our poor cells are taking every day, as we know antioxidants can help reduce celluar damage and can improve our immune system.
    Im also finding the longer this go's on that adrenal fatigue starts to become an issue. SO i am trying treating all above through antivirals and immune stimulants, antioxidants and methylation protocols, treating sleep problems and now treating dysfunctional adrenals. CFS definately effects alot of body symptoms.

    cheers!!!
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, garcia and Diesel.

    It's true that treating to lift the methylation cycle alone has not produced a cure for most of those who have tried it. A small number have reported what seems to be complete recovery after doing this treatment, but, as far as I can tell, these people had also done other treatments in addition. So treating the partial methylation cycle block alone is not the "magic bullet" for most PWMEs/PWCs. However, I still maintain that it is likely to be the main crux of the pathophysiology of this disorder. I suspect that the reason why treating it alone does not do the whole job is that other problems (such as infections and/ or toxins) have become entrenched during the time that both the immune system and the detox system have been dysfunctional as a result of this partial block.

    With regard to the experiences of inflammation you have reported when you tried this treatment, I suspect that what occurred was that the immune system was brought back up into more normal operation when this treatment was used, and it then began to go after infections that were already present. An analogous activation of the detox system seems to produces symptoms that are likely to be due to mobilization of toxins into the blood stream in many who try this treatment, also.

    I agree that the retroviruses could be playing a major role in this disorder. It would seem, though that increasing the methylation capacity would have the effect of silencing the expression of the retroviral genes, and tending to put the retroviruses into latency. Therfore, I suspect that the inflammation you experienced was due to the reactivated immune system going after infections other than the retroviral infections. Prof. Garth Nicolson has found that PWCs/PWMEs accumulate a variety of infections over time as they continue to be ill, so that on the average, those who have been ill for longer times have more infections. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of more research on the retroviruses in ME/CFS. I think that the GD-MCB hypothesis will end up meshing well with the retrovirus involvement.

    Of course, I could be wrong about these things, and I certainly respect your views and appreciate reading them.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  20. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I dont think cfs is going to be treated by a one trick wonder, i think its going to take a few different approaches at the same time as its a multi system illness. This is what i think Rich is getting at. The methylation maybe one of those tricks that we have to throw at it with a few other treatments.

    cheers!!!

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