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Why cant we sleep when we a tired??

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by heapsreal, May 7, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    undcrv put me onto tryptophan 2000-3000mg at night and i found it useful, although i still needed sleep meds, but i woke up after the sleep feeling good but probably the serotonin boost from it too. 5htp i have found good for mood but not much for sleep, for some reason tryptophan was better for sleep, we are all different. I have slept well the past 2 nights.

    cheers!!!
     
  2. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    heaps...where do you buy the tryptophan? I am willing to give it a try. Thanks....I know my serotonin levels are extremely low as I was tested last year. They aren't even half of the lowest acceptable level. Maybe that would help with my sleep..
     
  3. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    x- I might try the 5HTP again....since it is a wafer that dissolves I can break it into any amount....I took too much last night from being extremely overstimulated from work. 3 neurontin and 1/2 klonopin along with my lunesta...I am a zombie at the moment.
     
  4. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hugs .. I can relate to this all too much. Just a suggestion .. Have you looked for things in your diet that might be over stimulating you ? I kept myself going like this for about 20 years, post cfs, not realizing I was shooting myself in the foot. The higher demand these put on your body keeps you tired.

    If you're using things, like caffeine, to keep you going during the day, you should try cutting back slowly on that first. Healthy nutrient dense foods work better for energy. The wahls diet helped me with this.

    I had no idea how much better I'd feel once I did that. Not that I'm cured but I have oi/pots.

    Tc .. X
     
  5. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    I have to say I do drink coffee in the mornings (2cups) but I do so because I like it. I don't drink it after 10am because it really doesn't give me any kind of boost. I was tested for gluten a few years back. My stool sample was high so they did an endoscopy with biopsy and that was negative. I was also tested through a blood test which was totally negative as well.

    I eat very well and actually have for years so I am not sure it is related to my diet. The main problem is caused when working...that is what really destroys me. It didn't use to in the early years but is getting progessively worse and I don't want to quit after 20 years.
    I am not sure I have POTS or any of the related disorders but I have had many wierd things happen to me that would suggest it is a problem.

    I crave salt....my tears are never salty...sometimes when very hot I can't sweat...get extremely tired at work..or at the computer..I feel every heartbeat and it feels pounding and loud..I could go on and on.
    None of my doctors have ever suggested I could have this so it is something I need to look into so I can function better.

    I am just really miserable today....and it is still raining here which doesn't help! Thanks......
     
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Now brand tryptophan from iherb, they are 1000mg tablets, maybe start with one and see how it effects u. Best to take on an empty stomache or a few hours after eating protein food. With the higher doses u get good mood improvement the next day too.

    let us know how u go with it,
    cheers!!!
     
  7. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    Thanks heaps!
     
  8. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    I don't know why but l tryptophan keeps me wide awake! I bought a really top quality brand a while back and was shocked it had the total opposite effect on me. It seems that Anything that increases serotonin dose that to me.

    Also.....many l tryp supplements contain b6....usually the active form p5p. Someone else was posting that it seems to act like an excitotoxin or stimulant on them....I have the same experience. P5p makes me totally wired in a seriously bad way. Regular b6, not so much, if taken in low doses, but even 3 mg of p5p makes me wired and sick. So you may want to try an l tryptophan supp without b6 first unless you know for a fact it does not have this effect on you. Many of them have 5-10 mg of b6 per capsule.
     
  9. monk5990

    monk5990

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    Hi heapsreal,
    Wow. Except for the going to work part (i can't do that any more), your letter could have almost word for word applied to me. Oh, I don't like the taste of beer either, but in my dancing days, just substitute shots of tequila.

    So, let me share some about me and you can see if any of it resonates with you. I too, have an arsenal of meds on hand. (I was a practicing MD, a shrink till 12 years ago) I was always a "night owl", which would have been called insomnia in one era, delayed sleep phase now and with CFS, well, it's just a mess.

    I no longer have to watch the clock and be thinkin' oh, I have to be up in 5, no 4, no 3 hours. I too have back problems (and neck disks, had surgery on my neck in 2001) and I am actually having a PT come to my house (that won't last long...I opened the door and she said, OH! I expected to see a sick person.) I did end up in the hospital last week a not so long but not really relevant story of high BP cuz my back hurt, my arm hurt from my neck, a migraine, higher BP...blah blah) So, I had a cardiac workup which was ok and an MRI, no surprise, arthritis, bulging discs, stenosis (narrowing of spinal canal)...all stuff considered moderate. I'm not interested in any surgeries, certainly not on my back any time soon. I had both my hips replaced in 2007, i was only 50. But i digress, not unusual event.

    Through lots of trial and error, with various docs, shrinks (i have mood problems as well) and I see Charles Lapp, MD once a year in consultation and he is a real pro...I am finally on a regimen that is pretty sure-fire. If there is a new pharmacist, she may look at me sideways, but I don't care. I take Ambien, 20 mgs (it got to that dose over probably 12 years), it helps me GET to sleep, 2 mgs Klonopin, that KEEPS me asleep. Under most circumstances, if no one wakes me and I have nothing to get up FOR, I can sleep 10 plus hours. If I sleep much less than 8, I am much more achey.

    BUT, I go through (or did) what you called insomnia whinges, where I would sleep just a few hours a night for 3,4,5 hours a night. As a shrink, you'd think bells and whistles would be going off in my head. Before I was sick or VERY sick, those periods were great because I could be very productive, creative, was usually in a good mood. Eventually, I would "crash", but it had a different meaning than now. I would sleep for 12 or 14 hours and sort of normalize. (whatever that was!)

    But I have had a couple bona fide clinical depressions. Which I distinguish from the "feeling depressed" that seems to be part and parcel of M.E. When, five years ago, I was having such a depression, I had just had both hip surgeries, the doctor that had been negligent and misdiagnosed me had put me on HUGE doses of narcotics then lost his license because of a bunch of wrongful death suits, as in he killed a dozen or so ladies with fibro. And left our whole town of patients on narcotics and nobody really wanted to see any of his patients.

    Anyway, I go see the then new shrink, who was smiley and warm and I really had good feelings about at the time (I'm still feeling kind of stung by this more recent 'firing' event).

    She's doing her taking her history thing, then family history, yes there are some people with manic depression in my family. Then she asks if there has ever been a period when I have had a decreased need for sleep, talked a lot, was real active and my husband and I (he's a psychiatrist AND neuro) look at each other and go, nah, nothing that comes to mind. And she prods, not even a night where you stayed up all night? Aaaah, then it all starts coming back to us, oh yeah, remember that vacation at that place in Virginia the Heatcliff or Homecliff or whatever and Joey, our son, was about 10 and the room turned out to be really small and there was only one bed and I actually slept a couple hours a night the first two nights, maybe even was up all night the second two nights, oh YEAH...and I got sick with a UTI and we had to find a drug store out there in the mountains and I was taking Effexor, but I left it at home so i REALLY felt sick by the time I got home?

    And before that? Remember the time when we had a timeshare in the Virgin Islands (what a ripoff, now we can't even give it away!) and i didn't sleep much at all either and was all gung ho and dragged the guys on a sunset cruise and a sunrise (MOI? sunrise? the only way would be if i stayed up all night!) snorkeling trip and the water was really beautiful??

    Well, she gives me a little sample bottle of Seroquel 25 mgs and says that if that ever starts to happen again, to call her, but that I should have these on hand. And I whine, I don't want to take a neuroLEPTIC and she says, just put them in your medicine cabinet. And we continue to see each other every 3 weeks, when I am able to show up. She does also start me on an antidepressant, but says given the fact that I have had these "hypomanic" episodes and my brother is bipolar, she also wants to start me on a low dose of Lamictal a mood stabilizer. And my hacks go up...I say I do NOT want to take something that is going to make me even fatter, or make it harder to lose weight and she says, well, lamictal is pretty "weight-neutral" as opposed to what I was probably more used to prescribing 10 years ago, lithium (water retention) or Depakoate (weight gain), Tegretol (used it more in teens)

    So, I, a bit reluctantly agree to the Lamictal, because now I have not only a sleep arsenal, but a mood one, I take a med to prevent migraines, one for my BP, Naprosyn for my achiness...but ok, yeah.

    Well, I will cut to the chase here, cuz I am getting tired because, surprise! I have only gotten about 3 hours of sleep each of the last three nights. The Lamictal worked well in conjunction with the TWO antideprssants she put me on. She started me on Zoloft, then either she, or Dr Lapp suggested Wellbutrin, this is qite a ways back, because it was "activating" and might help with CFS symptoms as well. And I got a diagnosis of bipolar ll disorder slapped on me which means someone with depression who has also had at least ONE HYPOmanic episode. if you don't know, the hypomanic thing means, not full blown mania. Like "under" mania. Hypodermic needles got under the dermis, the skin.

    So, I am cool with this for a while, till my husband, the town migraine expert recommends to my internist that Topamax would be a great drug to prevent my migraines, instead of chasing them with pain meds, which doesn't work too well any way. So, I'm a good patient and I take everything at its prescribed doses till I get neuropsych tested (for my horrendous disability case) and the doc and my husband are talking like I am the developmentally disabled child or demented adult that is not there. And they are discussing how very poorly my cognitive skills have become my ability to think clearly and they are going over my meds and talking about what the possible main offenders could be and they are talking about Lamictal and Topamax.

    So, when the shrink boots me, or even before, during the time i was missing my appointments, i was first, very gradually cutting back my Topamax, the migraine one, cuz they laughingly called it Dopamax. And my fog, lo and behold is better. But i don't want to eliminate it cuz i am starting to get more migraines so i just keep it at a decreased dose.

    Then, I do the same thing with the Lamictal. I think I very gradually reduced it, I guess by too much. or with the combo of antidepressants i was on. I don't recommend, even for MD's that this was very smart, for me to futz with my own doses, but i was running it by my husband and a doc friend. Still it was stupid, because
     
  10. monk5990

    monk5990

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    I had one episode when I didn't sleep for 4 nights in a row, probably preceded by just getting 6 hours or so for a couple nights.

    Now, I am not suggesting that you have the same mood disorder that I do...but just as with my hips, I always think that people should rule everything else out before concluding that ME/CFS/fibro is the total route of their problem. I remember you said something about addressing cortisol levels, not exactly sure how you went about doing that...but would take a look at your own mood history, sleep history before you got sick, if anyone in your family, even an uncle is bipolar (manic-depressive, whatever you prefer), cuz if this is somewhat "cyclic" in nature for you, you may have what are now being thought of as bipolar spectrum disorders. And there are not necessarily clear episodes of feeling elated, which is how a lot of people think of mania...or periods of depression, which we typically think of as being very sad and hopeless...but maybe could manifest as "irritability" (you called your feeling cranky, which of course can also come from sleep deprivation) S
    So, hypomania can often look like: decreased need for sleep, or ability to fall asleep, facing thoughts, irritability...and there is also (just to complicate matters, that's why there is now the concept of spectral disorders) the "mixed state" which can have some qualities of depression and some of mania or hypomania. Soooo, sorry this was so long winded, i need to work on not being so verbose! I just thought I would put it out there because your post sounded so familiar.

    Oh, and if nothing else, I wanted to tell you that since Seroquel is a "neuroleptic" drug, a dopamine blocker, maybe the back spasm you are referring to is a "dystonic reaction". I've gotten it in my neck when I took Compazine for nausea (it's in that same class of drugs).

    So, sometimes, if for whatever reason, I'm having a hard time sleeping, which lately is partly because my back is "thrown out", valium is a great anti-spasmodic, but most doctors don't prescribe it in dose that would be sedating these days. But Flexaryl, which my Rehab doc prescribes for MY back and neck spasm kicks my butt, as in really puts me to sleep.

    These days, as long as I stick to a schedule, my Ambien Klonopin regimen works. Another thing to know is that if anyone is even PRONE to any kind of mania or hypomania, missing a night of sleep is a good way to initiate it. Or another way to think of it is, if you have that underlying tendency, just getting a small amount of sleep begets more nights of getting a small amount of sleep.

    Which sort of fit with when you said after you take the Seroquel and Valium, your sleep is kindof reset. OK. hope this isn't overwhelming!!


    Here's to good sleep! Monk5990
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    No hx of bipolar in my family, i also dont get manic stages, supposedly visions of greatness etc this didnt start until cfs onset, the stiff muscles i also get from antihistamines and certain sedating antidepressants, my doc said it is a common side effect. I think apart of my sleep issues are to do with 20 years of rotating shift work as well. the last 2 years now im just doing day and afternonn shifts so dont work past 11pm. before this my night shifts would be 7pm to 7am. my roster use to be 2 day shifts 7am to 7pm and then 2 night shifts 7pm to 7am then 3 days off, years of this with me/cfs have destroyed my circadian rythm. others i work with who have been in the job for along time complain of sleep problems but they seem slightly different, not as severe which for me that makes it worse is the cfs.

    The thing with my back is that when i have an ablation and the nerve is burnt that causes the pain, i dont get these issues until the nerve grows back like it has. I dont think is a dystonic reaction as normally u get muscle spasms in the face and eyes and its common with anti-emetics like maxolon, i havent had issues with maxolon.

    at the end of the day i dont really know, i go through a horrible patch for a few days every few weeks and a good sleep with some strong meds resets it. avanza is another med that helps as i one of sleep aid when like this. Sometimes i think maybe my body thinks its on a night shift???

    cheers!!!
     

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