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Why arenDeplin?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Hi all,

    It seems like a lot of folks here are taking more pills per day of methyl folate by solgar or other manufacturers rather than get a prescription for Deplin..

    Wouldn't it be cheaper (assuming you have health insurance) and easier (much fewer pills to take per day) to just get a Deplin scrip?

    Is there any advantage to taking it the other way?

    Thanks!

    Audrey
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Chilove,

    First, Let's be very clear that Deplin and Solgar, and a few others are genunine Metafolin. There are some other methylfolate products that are not metafolin. First, where are you from? In the USA, many insurance companies will not cover the cost of prescription vitamins, period. Some do. Second many doctors will not prescribe Deplin just because it works. They think we are nut cases. Third, many here are not insured and becasue of their diseased or injured or disabled condtions are uninsurable.


    Is there any advantage to taking it the other way?
    easier (less pills to take per day) to take Deplin


    Or more cutting into halves and quarters. I can't take Metafolin as 1 single or even 2 large doses in a day. I need it more frequently. Timing with food, and other times without, is what works for me. I take 5 doses a day
  3. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    I have both, and on my insurance the Deplin is cheaper. BUT, as Freddd points out, you are stuck with a couple of large (7.5 or higher) doses per day, which I may go back to trying now that I am on co-factors. I take my Deplin/Mb12/potassium combo at least three times a day, but may work up to five. Solgar definitely gives you more room to work out doses and times, and with Solgar, you can get plenty of back stock so you don't run out!! I might be putting some of each into the deep freeze just to get it past the expiration date.

    I am also considering a mego-dose of metafolin (45 to 90 mg range for one day) to help with some terrible leg leg pain, but will time it with hormones if I do, wait until I have had at least a couple of weeks with no crashes of any sort, and will probably wait until I have one or two more optional co-factors in place, too.
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I'm going to get the 5mg caps on iHerb, and dose it twice or thrice a day. They also have a 10mg version.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?16130-Methylfolate-other-than-Metafolin

    Hi Adreno,
    At the website there is an article, I couldn't find it the second time but it is somewhere, about counterfeit metafolin. Also there was an article about how the non-active form of methylfolate could block the active providing the potential of yet anogtehr form of paradoxical folate deficiency.
  6. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    On the website he says that Merck doesn't allow anymore than 1mg of metafolin in any product:
    http://mthfr.net/metafolin-knock-offs-caution/2011/11/17/

    Is this really true? How about prescription drugs?

    Then somewhere he talks about racemic methylfolate, and the D isomer being bad. But Thorne's product is L-5-MTHF, so I'm not worried.

    He also disagrees with a lot of your theories. I suggest you read this:
    http://mthfr.net/taking-folate-and-feeling-badly-methylation-requires-balance/2011/11/15/

    If he is right, then I am somewhat worried about what we're doing here.
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I found out some more. Read this:

    http://cerefolinnac.com/pdf/CerefolinNAC_insert.pdf


    According to Thorne, their product uses:
    http://www.thorne.com/Products/Circulatory-Support/Cardiovascular_Health/prd~B132.jsp


    Now, this is the single isomer version:

    http://www.gnosis-bio.com/extrafolates.php


    So as I understand it, it's exactly the same as metafolin. Both are (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    There is a reason that Merck doesn't allow more than 1mg of Metafolin in OTC vitamins. First, there are laws in some countries that would prevent that. Second, there are contractual obligations with the companies developing prescription products to protect their hundreds of millions of dollars of cost in developing and testing prescription items.

    He also disagrees with a lot of your theories.

    That's good. It produces a vigorous intellectual enviromment. It was after the Bay of Pigs fiasco that the term "groupthink" was coined. He clearly does not see either the lower potassium or the effect of a low dose of Metafolin with enough mb12 able to start so much methylation that a small dose of Metafolin can't maintain it. He needs more experience. He doesn't have the mb12 and adb12 experience. There have been zero controlled studies documenting these things that we are just recognizing in these past few days. In the past months my ideas about Metafolin have turned over so many times it might as well be on the spin cycle.


    If he is right, then I am somewhat worried about what we're doing here


    However, people here have already done what he is saying and moved on by learning more. He is also narrowly focused on genes and the theory arising there and appears to lack the quantitiy and breadth of experience that we have here collectively.

    Also, looking at the specific item, this may be the effect of taking the methylfolate without the mb12 increasing the subacute combined degeneration or CNS symtpoms that I have been warning about lately. It is the exact same old warning about not taking folate without b12 in a slightly different form. Again, he appears to not have as much experience and doesn't recognize these various effects and my not even be aware of them.


    You have just worked your way through about 5 or more generations of what would be studies taking a 5 year cycle each to work through and have determined for yourself that you do MUCH better on the higher dose of methylfolate. I would suggest that you let yourself become stable in in before trying the other methylfolate so you will know what the effects are more clearly.

    Speaking of that, while it is still clear in your mind, exactly what symptoms cleared up with the larger dose of Metafolin.

    Many of the symptoms he mentions in terms of "too much methylfolate" are a combo of paradoxical folate deficiency, low potassium especially and maybe other induced deficiencies. He is also speaking as high as 50mg of methylfolate.
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Well, some things that seem to improve are skin around nails, ibs, allergic symptoms, mucous membranes, cold extremities (blood flow is back), burning brain, malaise, mood.
  10. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    I, too, have done some reading at MTHFR.net, and if this guy HAS an MTHFR SNP (edit here -- ok, he does; they are silly with it, in fact) I wonder how well he is feeling? I wonder if he has looked at biochemistry, and has realized that folate and cobalamin need potassium to work.

    Has he himself had horrid IBS for years that quickly cleared up by leaving out ONE nutrient from his diet, and supplementing several others?



    Keep in mind he also has products to sell, and he may not have paid his neuropathy dues so to speak (with personal painful physical experience that has healed).

    Always keep in mind where someone is coming from.

    I am glad he is out there, though. At least if someone looks up my problem, his explanation could help them understand it.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    Thankyou. My experience is that they improve day by day unless the paradoxical folate deficiency starts to come back. Learn those clues and it becomes managable. I never let it go so long that I have a problem around my nails and fingertips any more.
  12. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    I think I just started a paradoxical folate slide, as I did not preload last night's supper.
    IBS and the skin on one finger is splitting on the fingerprint line, but not right by the nail, just near it.
  13. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Rosebud,

    We might have already gone over this on another thread, can't remember. If you haven't already tried potassium, 500mg doses, for the leg pain, you might give it a go. I'm taking that amount 3x a day to avoid muscle cramping (and, strangely, nausea). I find that for best results I have to really spread it out - right when I get up, middle, right before bed.
  14. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Thanks Maddie,

    I had taken just over 1000 mg of potassium yesterday, so I thought that was maybe my upper limit. But remembered that the folate was late - taken after the meal!! I am trying to see if the potassium is better at 200 mg 4-5 times a day, or if I can get away with 300 three times a day.

    I do remember seeing something somewhere in another thread.

    Funny, now that I have stayed away from folic acid for a while, I can sort out the symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency much easier.

    Had to figure out that I was short on potassium first, and then that I could NOT take in folic acid. (Still don't know about folinic as a supplement, but I figure I can test that with food)

    I took a higher dose of metafolin this morning, and this afternoon, and the leg pain is letting up.
  15. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rosebud, remind me please. Is there a reason you don't take the 500mg doses of potassium? When I threw lower doses at my cramping, nothing happened.

    Madie
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    It's good to see you and Rosebud and Adreno all starting to get these things under control and recognizing the low potassium separately from the paradoxical or low folate deficiency. It gets easier and clearer with prcatice as you all are learning. Fantastic.
  17. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Very interesting Rosebud.. what co-factors are you considering first?

    Thanks so much for sharing!

    Audrey
  18. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Rosebud, could you please explain what you mean by "pre-loading" dinner and why you do it?

    Thanks so muich!
  19. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    THanks Fredd.. I am in the US and have insurance and a sympathetic doc that will prescribe it if I ask her to. I think I"ll try it and see how it goes.

    Thanks so much!

    Audrey
  20. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Freddd

    Im feeling left out (lol!). Im really not supplementing with potassium and appear not to have any potassium deficiency symptoms. Could this mean that I am not healing?

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