which version

[Hip]

Respectfully, I don't believe I could show you enough proof, because you don't believe LPS translocation is true.

I did not say I don't think LPS can translocate from the intestines into the bloodstream; that remains an open question; it's just that when I looked for evidence that it can translocate, I could not find any.

I am very interested in any evidence that you can shown me, because as mentioned, I have also speculated LPS leaking from the gut into the blood might be playing a role in ME/CFS.

If I can make better sense of a different theory, I will hop on that bus in a hurry!

Have you looked at the sickness behavior response, where infection/inflammation in the gut (or in other organs) is sensed vagus nerve, and signaled to the brain, where it causes the brain to ramp up the level of brain inflammation, as well as precipitating sickness behavior symptoms (the symptoms you feel when you come down with an infection like the flu).

 

[kangaSue]

I did not say I don't think LPS can translocate from the intestines into the bloodstream; that remains an open question; it's just that when I looked for evidence that it can translocate, I could not find any.

I've researched this extensively too and can't find a single paper that shows a translocation of bacteria from the intestine can get into the blood stream directly unless there is failure of another organ leading to septicemia or from sepsis, neither of which is a passive condition.

As I understand it, any bacterial translocation is dealt with in being mopped up in mesenteric lymph fluid and sepsis will result if that system is overtaxed. What has been found recently is that pathogenic bacteria can be found in mesenteric lymph fluid without causing sepsis and without being detected in the bloodstream but it's not known if this has implication for disease states in chronic conditions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4575624/
http://www.ijmm.org/article.asp?iss...;issue=4;spage=334;epage=342;aulast=Vaishnavi

 

[ljimbo423]

@Hip @kangaSue Most research into the causes of cfs are unclear or unproven. Therefore if one wants to form a theory so that they can treat cfs in an ordered manner, which is what I have done and am doing.

Than some of the incomplete research needs to be accepted as true or at least the best possibility. Because of where the research is now, it really comes down to , what research you want to believe is true and best rings true for whoever is looking.

Chris Armstrong, one of the leaders of cfs research, thinks bacterial translocation is not only possible but it causes PEM. There are other cfs researchers that have connected bacterial translocation to cfs as well. So if I am wrong, at least I'm in good company!

Chris Armstrong-

"Well we all experience a bacteremia when we exercise. The type of bacteria that enter your bloodstream are usually quite controllable by your immune system but if your gut is further compromised they may release more bacteria into your blood or more pathogenic species or your immune system may already be depleted. This is the concept for the chronic sepsis or SIRS and this is what I think may be behind PEM."

LINK

 

[Hip]

Than some of the incomplete research needs to be accepted as true or at least the best possibility.

You are referring to a hypothesis, where you assume (without much evidence) that something is the case, in order to provide a tentative explanatory theory. Once a hypothesis is proposed, then scientists will set about finding empirical evidence that either helps confirm or refute the hypothesis. So both positive or negative evidence is considered.

But a hypothesis needs to be clearly distinguished from an empirically proven fact.

I think the hypothesis that LPS is leaking into the bloodstream and playing a role in triggering disease is an interesting one; given that hypothesis, we can then discuss the evidence (or lack of evidence) for it.


Your dysbiosis theory of ME/CFS in fact involves three hypotheses: firstly that dysbiosis can cause leaky gut; secondly that leaky gut allows LPS to enter the bloodstream; and thirdly that this LPS in the blood can trigger ME/CFS, or at play a role in the triggering.

I don't think it is a bad theory, as LPS does have immunomodulatory properties (LPS is a Th2 shifter, and LPS is involved in the process of immune priming — see here, here and here for info on immune priming).

A variation of your theory involves a possible link between leaky gut (but not necessarily LPS) and autoimmune diseases, which some researchers are examining.

Note that LPS is not the only toxin made by bacteria; there are hundreds of other bacterial toxins. Of particular interest in ME/CFS is Staphylococcus alpha toxin: a vaccine against alpha toxin has placed my ME/CFS patients into remission (see this thread).

 

[ljimbo423]

You are referring to a hypothesis, where you assume (without much evidence) that something is the case, in order to provide a tentative explanatory theory.

You are assuming I don't have much evidence because you disagree with the theory or "hypothesis". As I said above, Chris Armstrong and other CFS researchers have connected CFS to a leaky gut and lps translocation. You are free to believe differently, however, I stand firmly on my position.

Once a hypothesis is proposed, then scientists will set about finding empirical evidence that either helps confirm or refute the hypothesis.

I'm not a scientist. I'm just somebody trying to understand my cfs as best I can, so I can treat it as effectively as I can, just like most people here at PR.

But a hypothesis needs to be clearly distinguished from an empirically proven fact

Why would I need to distinguish my hypothesis from fact? I'm not a scientist and I'm not claiming it is fact, what I have said repeatedly, is this is what I believe to be true.

I would be glad to discuss this with you, if I thought you were open to it, however I don't think that's the case, so I will move on.

I will agree to disagree.

 

[Hip]

You are assuming I don't have much evidence because you disagree with the theory or "hypothesis".

As I said above already, I don't disagree with your LPS hypothesis, but am just questioning the evidence for it. Even if I was very enthusiastic about your hypothesis, I would still want to know what supporting evidence there was. Asking for evidence does not mean you disagree with the hypothesis.

Why would I need to distinguish my hypothesis from fact?

For the same reason that when the state arrests someone on suspicion of a crime (ie, on a hypothesis that they might be guilty), that suspicion is not accepted by a court until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt by the facts. If every time someone was arrested we automatically assumed they were guilty, it would be a terrible society to live in. That's why it is important to distinguish hypothesis from fact.

 

[kangaSue]

Most research into the causes of cfs are unclear or unproven.Therefore if one wants to form a theory so that they can treat cfs in an ordered manner, which is what I have done and am doing.

Some quarters would call that confirmation bias - everywhere you look, you find reference to your search parameters. Something I'm sure we are all guilty of at times.

 

[ljimbo423]

Some quarters would call that confirmation bias - everywhere you look, you find reference to your search parameters. Something I'm sure we are all guilty of at times.

Agreed. However, I only came to believe that a leaky gut was at the core of my illness after 8-9 years of endless researching into methylation, adrenal fatigue, mito dysfunction, a viral cause and other possible things as root causes. So my confirmation bias, I feel, is well earned.

I think it was and is necessary for me to have confirmation bias to some degree. If I didn't or don't, I wouldn't have a theory to follow and therefore no clear way to treat the cause of my illness. Is it possible that I am wrong, yes.

There's only one way that I know of to find out, that is by seeing the treatment through. Having a solid idea of what is causing my cfs gives me the willpower I need to give treatment a really good shot.

 

[Hip]

@ljimbo423, have you ever looked into phage therapy to treat your bacterial infections?

 

[ljimbo423]

@ljimbo423, have you ever looked into phage therapy to treat your bacterial infections?

I have read a little bit about before and just did again, through the link you gave. I am only 3 months into a moderately aggressive dysbiosis treatment.

I want to increase the dose of herbal antibiotics significantly, for a number of months, and see where it takes me. If I haven't made good progress, then all reasonable options are on the table, including phage therapy.

Phage therapy is a fascinating therapy!

 

[kangaSue]

Phage therapy is a fascinating therapy!

If you want a broad spectrum phage therapy, look no further than Fecal microbiome Transplant (FMT). Just have to figure out why only about 25% of people get good results from it but I would guess that's a good result for any other type of phage therapy too.